Ingrid: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Season 2 of Infinite Shelf, the human-centric retail podcast. I'm your host, Ingrid Milman Cordy. I am really excited for Season 2, and if you haven't listened to the first episode, I strongly encourage you to go back and listen. I do give a little bit of [00:00:20] a preface to what this season is like, and there's a bit of a spin on the content that you'll notice here and in the first episode. And that is that I am sitting down with the same caliber of amazing guests that we had in Season 1, so that includes Founders, CEOs, digital disruptors, retail [00:00:40] executives. And what we're trying to do is actually in real-time, live on the show, workshop through some problems or opportunities, or just what's top of mind for these folks and even sometimes me as an operator myself. The topics range from what we're going to talk about today with Katie [00:01:00] and Lauren, and that is rising customer acquisition costs in this privacy-constrained environment, and other topics are all about team building and organizational structures and just really, really interesting stuff with very, very smart people. So I hope you like it. I'm very open to your feedback. So [00:01:20] in this episode, as I said, you'll meet Katie and Lauren. They are Co-Founders and I'm Co-CEOs of HigherDOSE, also known as the coolest, most chic wellness brand that, frankly, I've ever seen. I've known Lauren and Katie for a really long time and have watched them sculpt this infrared [00:01:40] studio in downtown New York City from being this cool kid only infrared sauna brand that only really tailored to a clientele of A-list celebrities and trendsetters, people that are kind of in the know about it, to what seems like is in everyone's home, or at least in their Instagram [00:02:00] stories of them being in their sauna blanket that they now sell on their direct to consumer site on HigherDOSE.com. Katie and Lauren have a really, really unique perspective on the wellness industry, on females in the wellness industry, on females in business, and [00:02:20] I'm just so glad that they're here. And we get to talk about more specifically customer acquisition costs and things that you think about as you're running a DTC brand. And we also touch a little bit on pivoting from being in a brick and mortar retail environment to adding direct to consumer [00:02:40] into the business model and what that all looks like. So I had a really fantastic time talking to them and I hope you enjoy it. Welcome, [00:03:40] Lauren and Katie from HigherDOSE. I'm so happy to have you here.

Lauren: [00:03:56] Hi, Ingrid. It's so nice to be here. How are you?

Ingrid: [00:03:59] I'm [00:04:00] so good. I'm so good. So welcome to Lauren Berlingeri and Katie Kaps, the Co-Founders. And Co-CEOs of HigherDOSE, the house of Getting High Naturally and all things wellness, recovery and making you feel really good. I'm so happy that you're here and very [00:04:20] excited to just get up to speed on everything that you've been doing in the past couple of years. And we're going to also play a little bit of on-air problem solving together, which I'm so, so excited to do.

Lauren: [00:04:34] Great. I'm excited, too.

Ingrid: [00:04:38] So, Lauren, why don't you let [00:04:40] me know? What have you guys been up to at HigherDOSE in the past couple of years?

Lauren: [00:04:44] Oh, man. So much. I feel like the last 2 to 3 years have just gone by so quickly. But I'm sure you remember when we used to just be a location business, so we used to have HigherDOSE infrared spa locations around [00:05:00] New York City and some in Brooklyn. And we had really great partnerships with brands like Equinox and luxury hotels like 11 Howard and Shared Wellness Centers. And at one point we even had 12 locations, which is kind of crazy, and that was all amazing. And about two, I would say maybe [00:05:20] three and a half years ago now, we launched our first take-home product, which is our take-home infrared sauna experience. So at HigherDOSE, our mission is really to bring infrared to the masses. And we couldn't do that by opening locations because obviously, we were only servicing the people that lived in New York and Brooklyn, and we really wanted to bring this amazing technology [00:05:40] to the world. So we were like, "How do we take the infrared sauna technology and the same benefits and make it in a more portable, compact, affordable version?" Which that's our sauna blanket. It has infrared technology and has all sorts of amazing layers like amethyst and tourmaline. When you heat those two stones, [00:06:00] it promotes an even deeper infrared. A charcoal layer. It's low in EMF and ELF and has amazing clean materials and it's just an awesome product. And pretty much everyone has access to an infrared sauna in the comfort of their own home.

Ingrid: [00:06:14] Side note that blanket has made it with me through like six different moves. And I will not... You'll [00:06:20] have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands. I'm obsessed with it. It's the best product in the world.

Lauren: [00:06:24] Yeah, it is. It's really amazing. And, you know, when we launched it, this was like pre-pandemic. We started to see this business grow at 400% versus our location business, which was growing at 25%. So internally, Katie and I decided that we were going to focus more on [00:06:40] developing the product even further, which we're now on our fourth version, and then also creating other wellness tech that you can enjoy at home versus opening the location. So when the pandemic hit and we were forced to close all of our locations overnight, it's sort of just accelerated this direct to consumer business and product business [00:07:00] and allowed us to focus all of our resources through bandwidth and money to product and inventory and all the things that you need when you're a direct to consumer business versus location. So it was somewhat of a blessing for us. You know, all these people are talking about pivot this, pivot that during the pandemic. But really this was [00:07:20] an acceleration of something that we are already starting to do. So that happened. We currently have two of our locations reopened, which are our 11 Howard location and our wholly-owned Williamsburg location. But since the pandemic, we've also launched two more of our wellness products SKUs, which is our [00:07:40] infrared PEMF mat, and then also our red light infrared face mask, which are all amazing. And of course, you can use the infrared face mask while you're in the sauna blanket or on the mat, which is great. And then for all those people that don't want the commitment of sweating that you get from our sauna blanket, then you'll really fall in love with the infrared PEMF mat, which is more of a  [00:08:00]recovery-based mat. You wear clothes on it, you can use it at any point of the day. I wake up, I meditate on it, I stretch, I work out on it, I use it before I go to bed. All members of my family love it. And if you have an animal like forget about it, you will never get that animal off your infrared PEMF mat.

Ingrid: [00:08:17] Totally. And actually, you guys do such a good job of [00:08:20] going into the usage, the why, the how, everything on HigherDOSE.com. And so if everyone is just a little bit blown away by everything that you're saying, there's a place where we can direct people to learn a little bit more about the products and everything. But it's actually really fascinating to hear how the [00:08:40] pandemic just sort of accelerated an instinct that you and Katie already had and just sort of forced you into this new world that thankfully has just been servicing the public in this really important way, as people are starting to think more about their health, their wellness, their wellbeing, de-stressing, [00:09:00] sort of unplugging from this always-on culture that we've developed. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing that you've been able to bring to people who don't just live in New York City.

Lauren: [00:09:11] Yeah, you're right. I mean, COVID accelerated our business model, but also COVID also accelerated the idea that health is wealth [00:09:20] and that we should be investing in ourselves and taking care of our wellbeing, and thinking about products that help boost your immunity and recover from getting sick or preventing getting sick. So the culture has just changed so much in the last two years. And I think there's been a lot of bad things that have come out of [00:09:40] this pandemic. But there's also been, in my opinion, a lot of great things because it's kind of just like highlighted more the important things in life, for me at least anyways.

Ingrid: [00:09:49] Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thing to grapple with, right, in saying like, "Oh, the pandemic, actually we did great during the pandemic." [00:10:00] There are so many horrible, unbelievably avoidable for the most part, for a considerable part, elements of it. But then none of this is making light of any of that. I hope that that's clear from both of us. It's more just like, "Hey, the world sort of changed. And as a result, we're now thinking about things [00:10:20] through a different lens," right?

Lauren: [00:10:22] Correct. Yeah. I think with any sort of challenge in life, there's the opportunity to really grow and learn and put more importance on things that matter. So it was incredibly difficult for a lot of people and some more than others. But I do think there's [00:10:40] that opportunity to really grow and change.

Ingrid: [00:10:42] Yeah. Yeah. The new world that we're creating with more intentionality, hopefully.

Lauren: [00:10:47] Yes, exactly.

Katie: [00:10:49] I was so excited to hear that we're going to go over problems on the podcast.

Ingrid: [00:10:52] Yeah, I know. What do you want to workshop, do you think?

Katie: [00:10:55] Well, I feel like probably everyone's talking about the iOS update challenges [00:11:00] and Facebook and Instagram.

Ingrid: [00:11:01] Oh, I have a lot to say about that.

Katie: [00:11:03] Right?

Ingrid: [00:11:04] Definitely. Oh, that's such a good one. You have still physical locations, right?

Katie: [00:11:09] Yeah, we have two right now.

Ingrid: [00:11:11] Yeah. Are you expanding into more or no?

Katie: [00:11:14] We want to, but it's not going to be the main focus of the business. It's more of a [00:11:20] flagship approach in a couple of strategic locations.

Ingrid: [00:11:23] That makes sense.

Lauren: [00:11:24] So we launched our second product, which is our infrared PEMF mat, which is virtually the same as the sauna blanket in terms of infrared. But without the commitment of sweating, you get all of the juicy benefits of infrared, which is detoxification, relaxation, calm, [00:11:40] helps you sleep better. And again, you don't have that commitment of sweating into the sauna blanket. You can go on there with clothes on. It's pretty effortless to use and you can hop on at any point in the day. And then we also paired that with another wellness technology called PEMF technology, which is pulsed electromagnetic frequency, which is a [00:12:00] frequency that's very similar to the Earth's core frequency. Very grounding, very relaxing, very healing. So really, this mat just like melts away any stress, anxiety, worries, pain, inflammation, and just puts you into the deepest state of rest and digest and heal. People [00:12:20] fall asleep on it. People use it to fall asleep. People use to meditate on it. They use it to watch TV on it. You can use it at any point of the day. And I think that's why it's so powerful, is it's just so easy to use. You can use it at any time of the day and there's no commitment. You can jump on with your clothes on or with no clothes on. And we're [00:12:40] actually starting to see this product be even more popular than the sauna blanket, because I do think it speaks to more people. So yeah, the second product that we launched was also very successful, which we're very excited about. And then we also launched our red light infrared face mask too, which is pretty awesome. [00:13:00] The benefits of red light and infrared together are undeniable. The research and studies have been going on for years and years backing up what it does for skin, mood, balancing hormones, whatever you possibly need. Red light and infrared is really good because it feeds the mitochondria in [00:13:20] the cell, which is ultimately producing something called ATP, which is energy, which means all of your cells just work better. So we're really passionate about wellness technologies and also products that can increase someone's vitality and well-being and just make them feel great. [00:13:40] And our mantra and slogan is "Get high naturally." And I think that's the deepest mission of HigherDOSE, is just helping people feel better.

Ingrid: [00:13:50] Amazing. I think that's fascinating. And I've always been incredibly fascinated by both of you and your approach to wellness. I think that [00:14:00] you have really unique voices in sort of this, I would say, intersection between wellness and biohacking and technology. But I think when you combine all of those things, you start in your mind to create this image of a person that sounds and looks [00:14:20] a lot like Tim Ferriss. And there are no people in the space or very few people in the space that look and sound and are motivated by the things that you two are motivated by, which are similar in some ways to a Tim Ferriss kind of biohacker world. But it is incredibly [00:14:40] grounded in a lot of different motivations and also just the female perspective. And I just am super excited always about the things that you guys are paying attention to and the spaces that you're plugging into. And I think that didn't you guys just recently launch that Biohackers Web [00:15:00] series? I've been bingeing them like crazy, by the way. It's so fascinating.

Lauren: [00:15:04] Yeah, Katie and I are very passionate about the biohacking space, mainly because that's where we were introduced to a lot of these wellness technologies that no one has ever heard of, but yet they've been around forever. And, like I said, rooted in science and research. And we [00:15:20] really were passionate about this whole space. And we consider ourselves to be female biohackers ourselves, but really felt different being in this space because it's a very male-dominated space. Like you said, when you think biohackers you think Tim Ferriss, you think Dave Asprey know you think Ben Greenfield, and there are no real women [00:15:40] speaking in this space and owning that space, which is such a shame because we feel like women are the original biohackers. We've always been biohacking. We're the ones that have to tap into our consciousness and our feelings and know what is good for us, what's not good for us, prep our body before we have a baby, while we have a baby, after [00:16:00] we have a baby. Our hormones are very different than men. Men are much more stable. We also have a 28-day cycle. Men are only on a 24-hour cycle. So we, I think, are the original biohackers, which I think Katie and I really saw the opportunity to speak to the females that are curious about this space and [00:16:20] make it more approachable for them and ultimately use ourselves as human guinea pigs to try these like wild wellness technologies and products out there and show it from a female perspective and how it could be used in our life. And then also like considering that women have very different goals than men do. Men [00:16:40] typically want to live forever. They just want to be the fastest, strongest person out there. Whereas women have very different goals. Like I said, we have very different hormones. We have to carry a child at some point or not. We are very curious about how to stay calm and grounded and be nurturing [00:17:00] or balance being entrepreneurs and being mothers and best friends and a part of a community. And we actually want to take down our cortisol levels and not spike them because we don't thrive off of that. We're interested in how we can age gracefully, certain things that men just don't think about. So really we're just like taking [00:17:20] all of that curiosity and making a web series about it called Biohack-hers and just showing it from Katie and my perspective, which, even Katie and myself come from very different places in our lives and our goals. But I think it's really beautiful to do this experience together and just be very vulnerable and honest about [00:17:40] what works, what doesn't, what we're working on in our lives. And hopefully, it can inspire other people to really invest in themselves. I feel like more than anything I'm always just trying to inspire people the best investment that you can do is into yourself and just giving people the resources [00:18:00] and showing them that there are things out there that they may never even heard of before that can really change their life.

Ingrid: [00:18:07] Totally [00:18:20]. Yeah. And Katie I think [00:18:40]... So, Lauren, I know you you're a mother, you have twins and you're trying to juggle all of the things that you just demonstrated. And I think, Katie, you also you have a very, very different lifestyle and different motivations and things like that. And so I do think there's such a beauty in the diversity of perspective and life [00:19:00] experience that you both bring to everything that you do in both obviously the series but in work and career and friendship and entrepreneurship. I just I'm always drawing inspiration from you two. Katie, what's been going on with you?

Katie: [00:19:14] Yeah, I mean, basically just hanging on for dear life, trying to grow the company as fast as [00:19:20] we possibly can with limited resources. So I guess my stereotype is stressed entrepreneur lady that's like "I need all of this wellness stuff so that I don't go crazy right now," which is pretty much my life.

Ingrid: [00:19:36] Yeah.

Katie: [00:19:36] So yeah, I was living my life in New York. Very work hard, play hard. [00:19:40] And I gave up alcohol a year and a half ago and I've tried to replace drinking with healthy things that still get me high naturally, like hot and cold therapy. I'm obsessed with doing the cold plunge. I love doing IV drips. Of course, I love the infrared sauna. Now Lauren and I are  [00:20:00]experimenting with new things like combo that give you this like immediate connection to spirit where I'm at kind of at the point where alcohol is the last thing on my mind. So that's really cool.

Ingrid: [00:20:13] That's beautiful to hear.

Katie: [00:20:14] Yeah. And I also, I'm mostly in Miami now, which I do find is a healthier lifestyle. [00:20:20] I live right beside The Standard and Barry's Boot Camp and Sweetgreen. So I'm really just loving my retired health and wellness lifestyle where I'm not going out as much, but I'm just working and being healthy and it's a good place to be for now.

Ingrid: [00:20:38] That's so beautiful. Oh, man. [00:20:40] Sweetgreen executives, please, please, please come out to Seattle. I have no idea why you're not here. We're like the exact perfect consumer for you. We will line up around the corner. There is no Sweetgreen, and I miss it desperately from my New York Times.

Katie: [00:20:57] That is an untapped opportunity. [00:21:00] I'm going to start a Sweetgreen competitor in Seattle if they don't get out there.

Ingrid: [00:21:04] Seriously, I will partner with you because it's I miss it so much. It's hilarious. It's kind of silly how much I miss a salad place, but I do. Well, okay. One of the things, Lauren, you had mentioned was sort of the [00:21:20] evolution from being a physical experience, even though you still have the spas in New York into a DTC at-home, broader consumer experience, which I think is actually beautiful because it allows for people from all over the country and eventually, I guess, the world [00:21:40] to have this experience that someone living in, otherwise being in New York. And if you take one look at the HigherDOSE history and people who frequent there, it's a very specific clientele and they're very, you know, celebrities and influencers. And anyone who's anyone goes to  HigherDOSE and takes a selfie because it's gorgeous [00:22:00] and you feel amazing and who doesn't want to go to HigherDOSE when they're in New York? But the ability to democratize that experience and create accessibility to wellness across the country and also honestly making it more affordable because now you buy this piece of equipment and it's definitely buying once, [00:22:20] cry once kind of thing, and it's not even that expensive for what it is. And then you just have this thing accessible to you. And that I think is great and empowering. And so I wanted to ask you about if having physical locations and creating a brand in a physical location the way that you did has [00:22:40] made the DTC experience of creating a brand and creating a product different than maybe you would have made it if you had just started that way.

Katie: [00:22:51] Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely gave us a leg up in terms of we already had traffic to our website and press [00:23:00] and backlinks, so we already had this like boosted domain authority, which is obviously extremely useful for a DTC brand. And we also had this database of customers that were our spa clients that we kind of like knew what they looked like. We could segment them and create lookalike audiences [00:23:20] on Facebook. So that also really gave us a leg up as we switched over to DTC. And on top of that, we had feedback from our clients about what they wanted and how they liked the experience, and that helped us translate those insights into product. So I think it was actually like a really [00:23:40] great way to start as a DTC brand, start with locations, then move to online.

Ingrid: [00:23:46] Yeah, definitely. And I think you also probably got to know your consumers better too, just like the things that they probably informed. And I just even remember having these conversations where you were thinking so deliberately and [00:24:00] thoughtfully about the design of it, the colors of it, the way that it's going to fit in someone's home. And I think having had that experience of meeting your customers and your patrons in person and creating this persona for them in real life helped you sort of sculpt this product for them that that's [00:24:20] going to feel really unique and special in their home, but also like a piece of your brand that they get to own and cooperate and integrate into their homes. All right. Well, in Season 2, we have decided that it would be super fun to just workshop some problems. We don't expect to solve [00:24:40] problems in the good old 30 to 40 minutes that we have together. But I wanted to just talk through some things that you're thinking about professionally, either through your brand or DTC side or interaction with your consumers. What's something that you're constantly thinking about in a nut that you're trying to crack [00:25:00] at these days?

Katie: [00:25:00] Yeah. So why don't you start with your issues and then I'll go to mine?

Lauren: [00:25:05] And I'm sure it's somewhat similar, but yeah, so we are a direct to consumer brand. We have been quite successful with launching ads on Instagram and Facebook and then with the recent [00:25:20] iOS updates and our rising CAC, we are trying to diversify our channels and how we reach a new customer. So I think that it would be good to just have open conversation with someone that's an outsider looking in on the brand. And maybe [00:25:40] we could discuss what we think would be like the top few channels that we would think would be the most powerful for us so that we can get that customer acquisition cost down while still reaching a new customer base.

Ingrid: [00:27:33] Yeah. [00:27:40] No, that's a problem I actually deal with all the time and could probably create our own entire series around that. But so one of the best ways that I think about this in my day to day is it's not just a story about your CAC, [00:28:00] it's a story of the combination between your CAC and your LTV. And so those two things have to always be in balance. And so when you see your CAC prices going up, clearly you want to pay attention to that and you want to take notice. But you also have to look at it in balance [00:28:20] with your LTV because sometimes if you're singularly focused on just a lower CAC, you're going to go and find maybe potentially some lower lifetime value customers in less expensive to acquire places. Maybe [00:28:40] discounting, couponing, things like that. And so you're certainly going to achieve your goal in lowering your CAC, but you may also be taking a hit on your LTV at the same time. So I think that in general, just from principles looking at those in symphony [00:29:00] together is really, really important.

Katie: [00:29:02] At the moment because we are mostly like these hero technologies that you buy once. There's not a big recurring revenue component for us. We use AOV as a proxy for LTV, so we do look at our AOV over CAC ratio and [00:29:20] I'm curious what you think is a good target, whether it's LTV to CAC or AOV. What do you think is like a good benchmark?

Ingrid: [00:29:29] Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question. I would say you would want it to probably be like 2.5 or 3X your CAC. Yeah, [00:29:40] yeah, that's a good balance. And again, you still... Creating some form of recurring revenue, even if you have like a one-shot product is critically important because you never want to be in this place where you are constantly hungry for new [00:30:00] customers, especially with all of the tightening of restrictions that are starting to happen with privacy and things like that. So I would say, you guys, when I think of you, you are the queens of content and creating some form of Patreon or connection [00:30:20] to your consumer that's ongoing paid because your work and your time and the content that you're fueling is worth something. Connecting that with buying the package and getting some form of recurring revenue, even if it's really small, I think can be a really big  [00:30:40]game-changer for you all and also help you to continue having those connections with your consumers. It's kind of like sometimes you're on this new year, new you kick and it's January and I know in 2022, I'm going to commit to all of my goals and I'm going to get this infrared blanket and I'm going to get this red [00:31:00] laser mask, and then my skin is going to be glowing. And then in about a month and a half, I'm like drinking too much coffee and not enough water and I'm not sleeping well, and my blanket's gathering dust somewhere. And oh, man, I do remember, once a month or once every other week, I get [00:31:20] this push from HigherDOSE to inspire me, to continue inspiring me to live my best life. And boy is that not only a complimentary service to the thing that I originally bought from you but a constant source of reengagement and connectivity to your brand. [00:31:40] So I would urge you guys to focus a lot more on LTV and AOV. All of those things are super important, but just like rounding out because it's so hard to acquire a customer. So you want to make sure that everything that you're doing... So my advice here would be to focus a lot on your [00:32:00] CRM. Your client relationship management is everything to you because you've worked so hard to acquire that customer, to gain their trust, to earn their money. And you want to make sure that you're helping them achieve their goals from just after they hit checkout. So that would be the first thing. The second [00:32:20] thing with customer acquisition cost is obviously we all know that tightening is happening in privacy and Facebook and Instagram. And also who in the world wants to keep sucking the Zuck? Like nobody. Right? And so we want to make sure that we just think of new channels and like get out of this duopoly between Google and Facebook. [00:32:40] I've really been interested in Pinterest. I think Pinterest has been coming in and especially you guys have great health and wellness recipes. Those do super well. They've gotten a lot better in their audience targeting and things like that. So definitely channel diversification is [00:33:00] a big one. In terms of channel diversification, this is my hedge and all of my audience, I actually haven't shared this with you, but I really, really think that influencers and their first-party audiences, the people that they continuously have relationships with and that [00:33:20] they continue cultivating, are going to actually become more and more valuable in this privacy state because they are creating their own relationships and they're not collecting all of the data and things like that. But the more sophisticated and the more engaged the relationships between influencers [00:33:40] and their audience is, the more they're going to be valuable. And I think that we're in this place now where the cream is starting to rise to the top. It's really, really clear to everyone who is a savvy consumer, which is everyone at these at this point. They know which influencers [00:34:00] are bought and sold and that they can't trust, and they know which influencers really are respectful and thoughtful about their audiences and making sure they only bring them things that they really, really love. And it's okay if it's an ad and it's okay if it's a sponsorship and that's clear because they've developed this trust. And so [00:34:20] that would be sort of the three prongs: channel diversification, doubling down on influencers, but like really, really great influencers. And it doesn't always mean the big influencers. I know you know this, but I just engagement is everything and trust is everything. And then also just broadening your perspective of not [00:34:40] just singularly looking at CAC, but looking at it as client relationship management and creating some recurring revenue streams.

Lauren: [00:34:48] Yeah. That's awesome. Super spot on. I have a question about the CRM. Are there any tools that you specifically recommend?

Ingrid: [00:34:56] Oh, there are a lot of tools. So I would say [00:35:00] a few that come off the top of my head is we use Yotpo for our loyalty program. They're constantly evolving their platforms. They're fantastic. And then there are customer service ones that just allow you to sort of create this one singular view of the customer [00:35:20] and create your customer service team into more relationship management and lifecycle marketing. There are two tools that are fantastic. One is called Gorgias. And the other is Gladly. They're both fantastic tools. I strongly recommend looking into them. [00:35:40] I actually know the leadership at both of those, if you'd like an introduction. And Yotpo as well. I think there are there are some really great tools, but we can also talk offline and I can come back to the audience in the show notes with some other tools that I recommend to you based on some more details that I'd love to hear offline.

Lauren: [00:35:59] Very [00:36:00] helpful. Thank you.

Ingrid: [00:36:02] Of course.

Lauren: [00:36:02] Can we ask more questions?

Ingrid: [00:36:03] Let's go for it. Let's do it.

Lauren: [00:36:06] Katie, do you want to ask your question next or did I ask your question?

Katie: [00:36:10] I guess just on this topic, we definitely have found, to your point, that the right influencers convert [00:36:20] really well for us specifically functional medicine practitioners.

Ingrid: [00:36:24] Yeah.

Katie: [00:36:26] Wellness gurus.

Ingrid: [00:36:27] Yeah.

Katie: [00:36:28] And I continue to be more and more suspicious of how efficacious the Facebook spend is for us because there are so many issues with tracking. And [00:36:40] of course, their team has the incentive to make it look like we are getting conversions on their platform, whether we are or not. What would you think about like shifting our budget from Facebook and Google to influencer marketing? Should it be half and half or should we like slowly switch the budget over? How would you think [00:37:00] about that?

Ingrid: [00:37:01] I would do a lot of testing ahead of time. So like finding out how high is high on the more influencer and health care practitioner side. Just like 10% at a time. So if you're at, let's say 70/30 right now, 70, [00:37:20] Facebook, 30 everything else, just switch it 60/40 one month and or six weeks. You know your decision making cycle better than I do. So if it takes typically 30 days or 60 days from the first touch to get to a conversion, I would use that as your typical benchmark [00:37:40] for determining how long it's going to take. There are also... Here's the thing that I'm really interested in learning about these days is multi-touch attribution too. So how many times does someone have to see your brand, your product, or your [00:38:00] service before they actually make that decision to convert? Right? So like all of our tracking in Google Analytics, in Facebook or whatever typically is a last-click attribution and you can expand that to be only seven days from the attribution [00:38:20] window, or it can be 14 days from when they saw the ad. And obviously the broader you expand that attribution window, the more leeway Facebook has to claim that they were the people who drove that conversion. And there's a lot of technology out there that is [00:38:40] designed to follow all of your ad journeys to determine, well, obviously, they saw you on Pinterest or they saw you on an influencer ad or they heard you on a podcast, but they didn't convert from the podcast. They then saw two Instagram ads [00:39:00] and then they got an email from someone, and that's when they decided to convert. fAnd these multi-touch attribution technologies will allow you to better understand what that full picture looks like instead of just that last click that takes full credit, 100% credit [00:39:20] for the conversion when really how many times have you seen something once on Instagram and you convert that one moment, especially for these larger, more considered purchases? I might do that for like a pair of Bombas socks. Right? But I'm not going to do that for something that costs over $100 or over $200.

Lauren: [00:39:40] Yeah. [00:39:40] Makes sense.

Ingrid: [00:39:41] Yeah. So I would definitely start thinking about multi-touch attribution. Those do tend to be kind of on the expensive side because if you can imagine they're really incredible AI technology. So it may not be something that is even worth it. [00:40:00] The juice may not be worth the squeeze right now. But when you think about expanding out and you start thinking about larger revenue streams and things like that, multi-touch attribution starts to make more and more sense.

Katie: [00:40:13] Yeah. Totally makes sense thinks.

Ingrid: [00:40:17] Yeah, yeah, of course.

Lauren: [00:40:18] I have another question just about [00:40:20] our content strategy. As you know this is a new vertical for us, is producing our own content. And the way that we think about the content is obviously very important, especially when thinking about increasing the lifetime value of the customer and building trust [00:40:40] and all the things that you were mentioning before. From a high level, what would you say you would like to see as a viewer or as a client of ours in terms of content? What kind of content would you like to see HigherDOSE create?

Ingrid: [00:40:55] Oh yeah. I mean, ooh, I'm such a fangirl. This is the best question ever for [00:41:00] me. I would love to see like 1 to 1 discussions with different people to hear about their... Similar to like what we're doing with technology and with eCom and what you're doing. I want to hear people get interviewed, you interviewing them [00:41:20] and hearing what they're what's going on with them, how they're feeling, what their ailments are, and then thinking about ways that you can help them, whether it's "Okay, well, you're definitely not getting enough sleep," even just basic things like that or "Hey you may need this like really experimental ketamine therapy and you should watch the [00:41:40] YouTube on that." And just like thinking about having those exclusive conversations and then even just 1 to 1 consultations where you're able to help people with what they need and just directing them. You're kind of like, I don't know if you know that this exists. I only know that [00:42:00] because it exists from one of my favorite other podcasts, Eyewitness Beauty, is Annie and Nick, they had this interview with a plastic surgeon broker and she's like a beauty broker. And she's not a doctor, she's not a [00:42:20] surgeon. She's not even like a nurse practitioner or anything like that. But she's been in the business for like 30 years. And what she does is she has all of these relationships with surgeons and she is incredibly picky about who she connects people with [00:42:40] and constantly reevaluates their work. And she doesn't get paid by the surgeons at all. She does not take a commission. She is 100% paid by the clients, so she is super 100% her value is delivering to the client and she's not indebted [00:43:00] to the surgeons at all. And I think that there is a model that will sort of allow you guys to play that role where you're like this wellness broker, and again, you're not the people who are administering the therapy. I know that you are a nutritionist, Lauren, but you're not the ones doing [00:43:20] it, but you're these biohacking brokers. And so you can have a whole private client list that you do that for. And I feel like that's a really interesting revenue stream and something that I would want to use your services for and things like that. So there's that. And then with the people's permission, you can probably publish them [00:43:40] and then just constantly creating new content via email. You can do like a Substack or a Patreon where people pay a monthly fee to get "What did Katie eat today?" "What's the newest workout?" "What's the newest haircare product?" "What's going on with the newest trends?" Because [00:44:00] I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed by what the options are and don't even know where to begin and just know that they need to make some kind of change. And so there's this combination between being subject matter experts and trend sharers and also customizing it to [00:44:20] people's individual needs.

Lauren: [00:44:21] Love it.

Lauren: [00:44:22] Great ideas that should keep us busy for a while.

Ingrid: [00:44:27] Yeah. {laughter} Sure. Just gave you a whole lot of work. Sorry about that.

Katie: [00:44:30] No, that's ok. Good. Good stuff.

Ingrid: [00:44:36] Well, you guys, I'm always in awe of what [00:44:40] you're doing and super inspired. And mostly I just wanted to have this conversation so I can hear what you guys are up to. And also just share with my audience the amazing content that you're creating with Biohack-hers. We'll obviously link all of your Instagrams and socials and YouTube things in the show notes so people [00:45:00] can check you all out for themselves. But is there anything else you wanted to chat through before we wrap? I want to be respectful of your time.

Katie: [00:45:08] Oh my gosh. I hope we can just stay in touch more. This was such a, you know, I learned so much just talking to you for 45 minutes. And I wish that we would have been talking [00:45:20] to you more the last year because you would have saved us a lot of headaches. So thank you. Thanks for reaching out and being so awesome and helpful.

Ingrid: [00:45:30] Yeah, of course.

Lauren: [00:45:31] And I really love this form of podcasting, I have to say, Ingrid, where it's like you get a consulting [00:45:40] session with you who is ultimately the expert when it comes to this stuff and then applying it to different styles of brands. It's a really great way of learning. So kudos to you. I love this style of podcast.

Ingrid: [00:45:54] Awesome, awesome. I'm so happy that you guys were open and vulnerable and willing to listen, and I'm [00:46:00] very excited to see everything that you put out into the world from now.

Lauren: [00:46:04] Thank you.

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