CPG: "Around You, On You, In You"

Brian: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast about cutting edge and next generation commerce. I'm Brian.

Phillip: [00:00:04] And I'm Phillip. And today we are joined by Jackson Jeyanayagam, who is, I think, newly minted as a VP and GM over at Clorox. Welcome to the show.

Jackson: [00:00:15] Thanks for having me, guys.

Phillip: [00:00:17] Is it so new or am I behind the times?

Jackson: [00:00:19] Well, this is kind of like that question of like Happy New Year. Like, when can you keep saying Happy New Year? Same deal. I've been in the role for about a year and a month. So am I allowed to say I'm new? I feel like I am because Clorox has a lot of folks who've been there for fifteen, 20 years. I feel like it's still pretty new, but maybe a year is the threshold. You tell me.

Brian: [00:00:37] Yeah. Yeah. So you're in the club now.

Jackson: [00:00:40] Ok. Yeah.

Brian: [00:00:40] Once you go over... You're 13 months in. You're not newly-minted. You're in the club.

Jackson: [00:00:46] I'm minted? Ok. Well then I'm minted at Clorox as of last January.

Phillip: [00:00:51] "Are you vested?" I think is the question that everyone should be asking.

Jackson: [00:00:54] {laughter} Two or more years, I think on that.

Phillip: [00:00:56] Ok. All right. Well, we got it. So yeah, we'll make sure to follow up and we'll send you an email of congratulations at that time.

Jackson: [00:01:04] Perfect.

Phillip: [00:01:04] For those who don't know you... Yeah. I'm really excited to talk about some of the direction of Clorox today, especially in DTC and some of the stuff you guys have done on the acquisition side. But you're an interesting person and you've had a really interesting career path. I'm curious to hear a little bit more about you.

Jackson: [00:01:22] Yeah. Well, thank you. Really appreciate that. I don't know if my wife or my friends would agree that I'm that interesting, but I appreciate you saying it. Yeah. Where do you on me start? From just kind of where my career has taken me to my current role?

Phillip: [00:01:33] Yeah. Yeah. I think in the pre-show you were saying, you know, Chipotle, Boxed and Clorox, you know, one of these things is not like the other.

Jackson: [00:01:41] Yes. Yeah. So I'm not like a lot of my peers and friends who I respect tremendously, who had a very clear vision to their career and path. You know, went did undergrad, had way better grades than I did, went to grad school or maybe worked and then went to grad school. Maybe they worked at a consultancy agency and then worked at a big CPG or big, you know, a large Fortune 100 company and ended up at a startup. Or my friends or entrepreneurs, from scratch, always starting companies. Maybe there were VC. Maybe they were, you know, both an operator and an investor and have launched two or three companies. I was that kind of guy who barely had a 3.0 GPA. My first two years was like under 2.0 GPA. So I had to struggle to get 2.9 in undergrad. I didn't go to a big name school, University of Oregon. You know, a great football team. That's about it. And I love the program. Love the school. But it's no, Harvard, obviously. And then I didn't go to grad school. I never wanted to. I was a crappy student. I hate homework. I didn't know what I wanted to do by my senior and in college, which was 2000. I graduated in June of 2000. So, you know, I had a friend who said, "Hey, you should do PR." I was like, "What's PR?" He was like, "Well, it's you throw parties and talk to celebrities. You like parties." "Great. I'll do that. That sounds awesome."

Brian: [00:02:51] {laughter}

Phillip: [00:02:51] {laughter} Sign me up.

Jackson: [00:02:51] Definitely. I mean, that's all it took. I knew I didn't want to go into science. My dad's engineer. I didn't want to do that. Like a typical Brown family. My dad and family were like, "You should be a doctor...engineer..." And like, I had no interest in that. I wanted to be in the liberal arts side of the field, but didn't know anything beyond that. I love sociology but don't wanna be a social worker. So yeah, I fell into PR and did an internship. That seemed cool. I joined a PR agency, and I'm telling you guys, my first six years I didn't throw one party. I made lot of phone calls. I took a lot of notes. This is pre social media for the most part and was faxing journalists and pitching. And I'm like. I mean, it's a job. You know, I think I made like $20,000 first year out of college in Portland. So it was fine. It paid the bills. I wasn't rich by any means. Struggling and eating Cheerios for dinner and didn't know what I wanted to do. I moved to Seattle with the agency...

Brian: [00:03:36] Seattle!

Jackson: [00:03:37] Yeah. Seattle.

Brian: [00:03:38] I'm from Seattle. Sorry.

Jackson: [00:03:39] Oh you are? Okay. You were really excited. I was like, "Wow, he really likes Seattle."

Brian: [00:03:43] I really do.

Jackson: [00:03:44] It's a cool city. I love Portland, but Seattle's cool, too. So I moved up there to work on T Mobile, again on the agency side. And then that's kind of when my whole world opened up. I had a great boss. He's still kind of a good friend and mentor to me who, you know, he traveled all over the world. And he was like, "Listen, you know, you're going to travel more and move more for your job than you realize right now. And this is your first step. And, you know, you got take a risk sometimes." And that was a big lesson I took with me my whole career, and I got lucky enough to work on all the... Remember the Sidekicks, T-Mobile Sidekicks back in the day?

Brian: [00:04:13] Oh, yeah.

Phillip: [00:04:14] Yeah. Paris Hilton got me into those way back in the day.

Jackson: [00:04:17] So we worked with her. We loved... We launched every Sidekick. That was my baby. And most people don't know, that thing punched above its weight. Meaning that wasn't a hundred person marketing team with a twenty million dollar budget. It was like five of us.

Phillip: [00:04:28] Wow.

Jackson: [00:04:28] A couple of people from two different agencies and two people internally.

Brian: [00:04:30] Wow.

Jackson: [00:04:30] It was a tiny piece of business compared to the core business was like flip phones and Blackberries and stuff like that. The majority of our focus was like making this things cool and hip without spending a lot of money. No TV really, and making it popular and hot through this kind of underground method of PR, content, influencers, celebrities. And that's what we did. So, you know, Paris Hilton, then our Sidekick got hacked and then it became a huge issue that we are dealing with on social media. And I was one the few that understood social media 2005. I was doing stuff from MySpace. Doing stuff with the bloggers, working with the founders of Engadget and CrunchGear and Gizmodo. I know those guys were like really well from way back in the day, but these were like at the time, no one was thinking about MySpace and Gizmodo. Everything that Wall Street Journal and Good Morning America. I was a one guy that knew how to handle this and it was all happening online over the weekend when our phone got hacked. And long story short, we kind of came up with a plan and addressed it and minimized all the issues of customer service and people going into the stores to cancel their phone because in 2005, no one knew your smartphone or your phone could get hacked. Sidekick was a smartphone. So we handled it. And then the clients were like, "We should do more on social media. Can you take on more? And we will give you some budget for that." So that's when it really oh, my eyes to digital marketing and social media for the next five years or four years. I spent with T-Mobile in Seattle, then moved to New York, launching all their Sidekicks, expanding the social. Launched them on Wikipedia, launched them on Twitter, then handed it over customer care. But at the time, this seems like a big deal now, right? But at the time, Wikipedia wasn't that big of a deal. Twitter wasn't that big of a deal. We're just doing what was out there. Let's try this thing. Facebook became public to people beyond college, so let's try something on Facebook. So we did a lot of wrong things. I created fake personas on MySpace and tried to befriend people who look like our dem. I mean, things you would never do nowadays because there was no rules. No one knew, right?

Brian: [00:06:15] Right.

Jackson: [00:06:15] I was like a 27 year old kid with a budget and a cool Sidekick product. So what else am I going to do? I had no support, no team, and I had one client. He was the one guy working on Sidekicks. So anyway, long story short, man, that's when I kind of fell in love with digital marketing, was in New York, where after about nine years there, I'd done the T-Mobile thing. It was great. Went to another agency, worked on Old Spice, fell kind of into a lucky place where I joined Old Spice before it was Old Spice. So remember, also back in the day, it was like your granddad's cologne.

Phillip: [00:06:44] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jackson: [00:06:46] And then it had the Old Spice Smell Like a Man Campaign. And that was Wieden+Kennedy's beautiful idea that I was working with them on. I was an influencer aid working alongside Weiden. And we started working on that campaign and didn't know how big it was going to be. All my friends made fun of me for leaving Sidekick to go work on Old Spice. Then a year later, we do the 225 video responses in two days. My team managed all the social round that. It was a whirlwind of a campaign. Good, mostly good. Some bad things, but overall was an amazing experience. Again, didn't realize what I was in the middle of. Very different than T-Mobile Sidekick. That kind of built up. This was like literally overnight felt like turning a brand that was old school and not relevant at all to the hottest brand on the Internet in 2010. Doing things that no one had done before. And I saw the power of digital and social not only to move impressions, which is the BS metric that people cared about the time, but actually moved sales and moved cases and gets sold out across the country and across APDO and body wash. So did that for about a year. Amazing, amazing experience. Got recruited by another agency to run digital and did that for five years, supporting like Diageo, Taco Bell,  PNG, NASCAR... I really wanted to expand and be on CPG and tech. And then that's when Chipotle, they called and said, "Hey, can you come run digital for us?" Unlike Old Spice, I joined Chipotle at its peak when it was the brand, right? It was the hottest brand, you know, 15 minute wait. Everyone wants to be a part of the Chipotle movement. And then the food crisis hit like a few months in. And now exact opposite of Old Spice. Where now dealing with this brand that was at its pinnacle, can not get people in store. Wall Street is killing us every other day it's a new LinkedIn and Facebook headline saying another crisis issue, you know, e coli issue, Boston college basketball team gets sick at Chipotle... Missing three games... Like I mean, it was just all within a month of October, I believe, 2015. And, again, another long story short, learned a lot. We did a lot of wrong things, some right things. You know, we were just trying to figure it out and make everyone happy. As you guys know, everyone knows, a lot of executive changes happened consequently. And now they're back on track with Brian Niccol, who is actually my former client at Taco Bell, weirdly enough. But I left after about a year and a half. Great experience, but I left before Brian got there. I saw the writing on the wall and thought this thing is going to be a challenge to get back. And my role was heading up digital and I was trying to create a CRM. I launched a loyalty program with them, trying to move them into a digital frontier of restaurant marketing. No one really was doing that and they just weren't ready for that at the time with that current leadership team, and Boxed recruited me in as a CMO of a fast pace growing startup selling bulk goods delivered to your door within two days based in New York. Did that for a couple of years. Again, an amazing experience. I wanted the startup experience where, you know, you're fundraising, you're growing a business. I'm getting closer to the numbers, really understand the financial elements of running a business versus just doing digital marketing. I loved it. I mean, we had our challenges, you know, went through a lot of discussions with potential M&A investors, potential strategic investors, financial investors, learned how to build a team from scratch across all functions of marketing, brand, creative, performance, loyalty, advertising and monetization because we could monetize ads on our platform. Did that for two and half years, and then I kind of got to a point where I'm like, you know, I'm not sure what I want to do next. I could always do a CMO route. And there's plenty of opportunities. You know, talking to my wife and was like, "I never saw myself as a CEO, but I've worked for all these CEOs... Some great, some not so great, some in between. I have all these learnings." And she's like, "Listen," She stopped me. She was like, "Why do you keep looking to go find a CEO to work for? Why don't you just get on track to be your own CEO? You know, go get a role that allows you that experience, that maybe hopefully become a CEO or president of your own company." And, you know, I was like, "I don't go to grad school." She knows how bad of a student I was. And I'm like, "I'm not interested in getting a $100,000 in debt and struggling through grad school." She goes, "Well you don't need to do that. Just look for the right role." She works in HR and recruiting, so she has great insight. And I said, yeah, maybe. And then over the next two months, as I was casually looking, I wasn't in a hurry. I always believe you run to something and not run from something. A couple of opportunities presented themselves, and one was this one. And you know, on paper, it was not where most people would think I would go. From Chipotle, to agency, to Boxed, to Clorox. Right? People assumed I was going to go to a startup world or you know, Diageo or some sexy brand. [00:11:10] Man [00:11:10] was my old client. But, you know, sometimes guys, as you probably know, the sexiest thing isn't the brand name or what it looks like on paper. It's actually the role, the people, the manager, you know, that opportunity to grow.

Phillip: [00:11:21] So true.

Jackson: [00:11:21] Right. And it took me, I'm 42 now, about to be, and it took me 20 years to figure that out. I was always chasing the hot brand. And sometimes, you know, the hottest thing is, man, this role itself, is it going to really push me and challenge and every role I took was meant to do that. But this one was on a different level where I was going to expand my experience into running a full PNL operation, supply chain, R&D, finance, HR, and yes marketing, technology and integrate into Clorox, but also transformed the way they think in terms of going to market and retail and first party data, things that, you know, that was not the Clorox model, right? The Clorox model is ship pallets to big retailers and let them sell it. There's no need to own the data and the consumer relationship. Well, things are changing and an opportunity changed this major, very successful company from within in the wellness space. So for all those reasons, it did require a move from New York to DC. But, you know, for me, it was like... And my boss is amazing. I mean, it still is. A year into it, and it's just like everything he told me he would give me. The autonomy, but the ability to learn from him. It's exactly that. So, so way long winded answer to your question about my career. It's been all over the place. A lot of luck, guys. It's not like I knew exactly what I was doing when I was making choices. You know, one of my jobs I left three months after the recession. My parents thought I was crazy. But I truly believe that one mentor I told you earlier, take risks right? You live once. Like, if anything, this whole Kobe Bryant thing, you know, a few weeks ago has taught me and my wife to treat every moment, like it's real, like whether for your family, your friends, your loved ones. Treat every moment like you're not going to have it again. So, you know, I tried to take that to heart way back then. And that was one of decisions I made. And then this was another one where it's like, you know what, I just got to do it. You know, happiness is everything. It's not about the money all the time. It's not about, you know, the title. It's about being happy and driving something and learning and growing. So, yeah, most of the moves I made, you know, weren't maybe necessarily intentional, but they're just like little bit of got a little bit like me push myself and challenge myself. And luckily, having a great partner and some good friends and mentors I can lean on for advice.

Brian: [00:13:18] Nice. Yeah. Go ahead, Philip.

Phillip: [00:13:22] Oh, I was just going to say I feel like we could just spend the whole hour really just kind of talking through that, because I think that that's kind of the key. Someone asked me earlier today and I spent some time here at a startup accelerator mentoring the new generation of like Gen Z founders and they're like, "How do you do it all? Like, how do you balance it all? How do you do it all? The short answer is you don't. That's why we have teams. That's why we have people. People balance out our inability to deliver on certain things. I'm always trying to be more complete. But you have to have... To do bigger things, it takes a whole lot of people and a whole lot of dedication and a lot of vision. There's a ton of self-reliance for sure.

Jackson: [00:14:13] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:14:13] But any good leader is going to be able to champion people to their cause. But Bezos isn't building his own rockets and launching them into space. Right?

Jackson: [00:14:26] Right. You need people. You need great people around you. I'm a big believer... I don't know if you guys read John Maxwell's "Five Levels of Leadership." He is all about servant leadership.

Phillip: [00:14:34] For sure.

Jackson: [00:14:34] It's amazing. And I think I don't care what generation we're in, how technologies evolve, there will be nothing replaces people and valuing people. It's very different than the Mad Men era, right where it was about hierarchy and title. I think we're seeing a huge shift and now obviously diversity of thought and perspective and experience. That's obviously where we're going. But this notion that it is about your people, man, you got a you got a really... I think that's what you're getting at, right? Adapt your style to your people, not the other way around.

Phillip: [00:15:00] Yup. Yup.

Jackson: [00:15:00] Ten people will come from different backgrounds. They don't need to adapt to you. You need to adapt to them and realize that without them, you are nothing. And like, you know, listen, I have an ego. We all have an ego. Right. But I try to make sure that's not what drives me. I try to humble myself, even though when I get a big quarter and I get confident or someone gives me a nice recognition like I keep it in check. But like, really, it's the people around you. If you can live by those people and those standards and focus on them and grow them, which is like the most rewarding thing, too...

Brian: [00:15:27] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:15:27] One hundred percent.

Jackson: [00:15:27] When you see someone, and hopefully they don't leave you, but if they leave you and they end up in this most amazing role where they're probably going to manage you soon, like there's nothing more rewarding than that. Right? Because you know you played a small role in helping them get there. So to me, dude, it's not just lip service, man. It's genuine. I think people are everything, and when you're around good people who are doing it for the right reasons. High empathy, curiosity, who aren't trying to sabotage each other or be passive aggressive... It's pretty amazing what you can do even when everything is stacked against you.

Brian: [00:15:53] Totally agree. You know, there's so many things to take away from your story. One of the things that I think is really interesting is that you've been involved in a series of very disparate situations. {laughter}

Jackson: [00:16:08] Sure.

Brian: [00:16:08] You've been with brands on the way up. And you've been with brands all the way down. I would love to hear more advice for some of our merchants on like what to do when they know they kind of hit that point where it's like, oh, we've got a lot of momentum. How do we act and how do we operate as a business when we have that momentum? Or when, oh, well, we just had a huge crisis. How do you prepare for those like total extremes and they happen to every... Any business that has any lasting value, both situations are gonna be true at some point.

Jackson: [00:16:40] Yeah. I don't know if there's a way to prepare. I mean, sure some grad school teacher could probably tell you there is a way to prepare. Right? But I just you know, you guys know where I stand on that stuff. So to me, it's like case by case. But I would say when you are, let's use your first example, when you hit this momentous swing. Something happens. It's either an idea or a piece of content, something you've done, and the product just takes off. I think it's like sports. You guys play sports as kids or now?

Phillip: [00:17:08] I played Little League Baseball. I don't think that counts.

Jackson: [00:17:13] I played basketball and soccer all growing up. And for me, my basketball coach would always tell me, don't be afraid of the moment. And I think that's the big one I took away. There are a lot of tactical things you do. You can have processes in place. You get people blah, blah... No. To me it's like it's a mental state because it's so easy... If you get a big win it can be so easy, just like a big lead in sports, to be like, "Okay. We've got the big lead. Let's just hold on it." And I just don't think... It's 2020, man. Like everything I've seen around us, like things are fleeting, things are moving, things are dynamic. Consumer needs are changing. I think you actually have to lean into it and not be afraid of the moment and not be afraid of risks when you do strike it big. So it's like, OK, you have this big idea, big, amazing explosion with this new product you offered... Jump entirely into it, lean into it, continue to take risk because that's why you probably had that big win to begin with. You took some risk, right? So for me, it's a mental state like let's be open, let's try everything. And let's be very clear that this will not last forever. That's one thing I've learned about Chipotle. Right? Like no matter how good your brand is... Name any brand right now that's blowing up. Tesla. Sweetgreen. It will not last forever.

Brian: [00:18:11] Right.

Phillip: [00:18:11] Yeah.

Jackson: [00:18:11] Now, Microsoft is one of my favorite examples of a brand that was hot, kind of died down, and now look at them. They're blowing up again.

Brian: [00:18:17] Yes.

Jackson: [00:18:17] Their stock is through the roof. They had to reinvent themselves, but it didn't last forever. But what they have now is a very different look and feel of Microsoft. I mean, it's still one of a few brands on like all these indexes, most popular brands work for at different demographics. Twenty five years, it's still on those lists even though the generations have changed. It's amazing. It don't actually enough credit for that outside of Wall Street. But that to me is the one thing is like even them, though, they had a big dip, a V and then came back up. So for me, it's like no matter what that swing is, know that it won't last forever. So take the risk and lean into it. And on the flip side, I'd actually argue it's kind of the same deal. So it's like you can be dropping off or you had a big issue. You have a food crisis. OK. Well, you know, there's some inherent value. You knew what made you popular to begin with. Right. So hopefully that hasn't changed too much. In our case, that hasn't changed. Right. We had some issues, but doesn't mean the food's not still quality and people love our ingredient story. So how do you get closer to that? Don't get farther away from it. I think it's so easy to throw, forgive the metaphor, the baby out the bathwater when something goes wrong. It's like, oh, the whole thing's wrong. And it's like, well not necessarily right. And you see this right now is Chipotle's marketing. It's still about the ingredients. It's still about that story. That is what got you there. That said, you might need to adapt. Now, you might need to try different tactics. So I think, you know, not panicking. Obvious, right? Don't get desperate like they always say. This is awesome phrase. I'm going to totally butcher it. But this notion that like in the middle of a hurricane or a cyclone, the warrior or the leader, the one who really can stand still and plant their feet in the ground while there's hurricanes around them is the one that everyone will look to. Right. Essentially, that's the spirit of it. And that's true, right. Those are the people, individuals and organizations when all this is hitting the fan, they are the ones to stay calm and true to who they are, but they adapt as needed and they bring people along and they don't panic. Right. And almost anyone we're talking to, again, given your audience. Unless you're solving for AIDS, unless you're solving for cancer, unless you're solving for major things, most of things we're all dealing with, like I'm selling health and wellness and stuff, which is really important to people. But listen, at the end of the day, it's not the same scale as maybe some other industry. So unless you're in one of those industries, what most of us are doing. I mean, now it's pushing burritos, dude, and I was pushing sneakers and at Boxed I was pushing Quaker Oats. Right. Like, come on. This isn't really at the end of the day going to make that major impact on people's lives if you keep that context in the middle of whatever is happening. It does make it easier. Now, keep in mind, I wasn't the CEO of Chipotle dealing with Wall Street investors. So there's a little bit of a framing there that's important. But I do think if you hold true to who you are and maintain calmness no matter what's happening, I do think that's the first step to kind of manage that.

Phillip: [00:20:44] Yeah, I think from just from a leadership perspective, making decisions based on emotion is probably... When you're in that high pressure timeframe. I guess I can't really generalize it. In my life having made decisions under duress, they're not always the best informed or the clearest path to what the next step is. If you take a step back and you rely on the advice of others, you have to have some trust and some faith in yourself. I think those are probably the things that got you to the position you're in in the first place. It wasn't the emotional reaction.

Jackson: [00:21:27] That's right.

Phillip: [00:21:27] And that's the thing that brought you to the place of prominence or success or authority that you have in the business you're in now. Those are the things that you should lean on as the insight and guidance and ability to think clearly, not to react and put people on blast on Twitter.

Jackson: [00:21:45] That's right. Exactly. Exactly. Trust me. I've done it before, too. I've made mistakes like, look back and I shouldn't have done that to that guy or I shouldn't have done that. You are right. And you've got to tweak it. Obviously, you can do exactly what you did to get there, because now things are changing. But you're right, that core foundation is probably something there you can rely on. And interesting thing about listening to others. There's also a thin line on who you listen to at what moment. Because at Chipotle there was a great example. There are some people that were just so sound and calm through the whole thing, which is like, OK, I should listen to them more. There's other people that were just a little bit more frantic, a little bit more like in dire needs. And I think that's always a challenge. Who do you listen to when? And in some those moments, you know, making sure that you have the right people in the room, but also gravitate towards people who maintaining that calmness. Forget their title or function, but really about like how do you ensure you have a balance? You're not making decisions just because you're reacting to everything happening around you. You're taking a deep breath and saying, OK, there's now, but there's also six months from now and a year from now. That's much easier said than done. Don't get me wrong. But I think that's also a big piece of that, too, to your point earlier.

Brian: [00:22:47] I want to ask you a question about some of your brands, because you are the head of DTC at Clorox, and it's such a diverse set of brands that you have on your portfolio. Maybe before I ask some questions there, would you kind of just run through which brands that you kind of have in your portfolio. And then we can dive into some of those more general questions about DTC brands.

Jackson: [00:23:11] Yeah. So we have for the DTC area,  I have like the retail DTC which are brands at retail first. The majority their revenue's coming through retail stores and Amazon. So Costco, Whole Foods, GNC, you know, and so forth. Kroger. And then you have the pure play DTC brands which are under me, which probably aren't going to be household names. So those brands are, one we just launched when I got here. We created a custom tech stack. My first strategy was to build a custom tech stack, not a Shopify or big commerce off the shelf that can scale and support all the brands on one platform and all filing into one data warehouse. So we launched that. And on top of that stack, we launched it with a brand called Objective Wellness, which is like two months and three months in its infancy. So we're doing a lot of testing and iterating on that to kind of figure out what it's really going to be. So it's essentially MVP mode right now. So that's one brand. It's targeted at Gen X families, Gen X moms and dads, more moms probably. And then we Stop Aging Now, which is a brand I inherited, which is really focused on the boomer audience, mainly folks with just supplements. And then the other four brands that are retail DTC, or five brands I should say, that are in the wellness and supplements category are Burt's Bees, which most people don't know Clorox owns Burt's Bees. They've owned it for several years. Which is super cool. Great brand. People don't realize that they aren't a DTC brand. Actually, I talked a lot. People like aren't they direct to consumer? I know they've been around forever, and their still at the retail. They have DTC.

Phillip: [00:24:34] Yeah. Yeah.

Jackson: [00:24:35] But the majority of their sales are in store. It's really funny, but people perceive them as cool, hip young brand that was born in eCom which is so funny to a lot of us.

Phillip: [00:24:42] It could be that direct to consumer just doesn't mean anything anymore that makes that sort of...

Jackson: [00:24:47] Well that's true. That's a good point. That's a great point. You are basically saying my title doesn't mean anything. Yeah.

Phillip: [00:24:52] I didn't mean your title doesn't mean anything.

Jackson: [00:24:53] I'm joking. I'm joking. Because you're right. It doesn't mean anything. It's true. It is all direct to consumer. It's just really where and how are you shopping for and where and how are you getting it? I.e. to your door or to stores? I actually completely agree with you. I was the first one, by the way, at my company always saying like digital marketing is a BS title. It's not going to be here, it's just going to be marketing. And I remember people saying, "But you're VP of Digital Marketing." I know, but like I should if I'm doing my job well, like I won't have this title in three years. There's no digital marketing. So I'd agree with you on DTC. So Burt's Bees is one. And then the other four, which are more of the wellness supplement site specifically, is RenewLife, which is a digestion product. NeoCell, which is a very popular collagen product.

Phillip: [00:25:33] Yeah.

Jackson: [00:25:34] Collagen's blowing up right now. Natural Vitality, which is also blowing up. It's a magnesium product that helps, you know, helps you with anxious moments and know does has a lot in the sleep category, too. It's a gummy and a powder. Really popular. And then the final one is Rainbow Light. Which my wife took when she was pregnant with both our kids. Prenatal, but they also like daily vitamins and so forth. So it's a growing category. You know, obviously CBD coming in, it's going to continue to explode. And I imagine it'll be a lot of new players in the market. But those are the four supplement wellness brands and Burt's Bees being the fifth one. There's other Clorox brands right now, but they're not really doing much in direct to consumer at this moment. But, you know, there's always brands we look at from an M&A standpoint or even brands that we might look to bring on to DTC. But as of today, that's my purview, so those brands.

Phillip: [00:26:21] And I feel like I have to give the full disclosure moment in that in another role at a digital agency that I have. I work at Something Digital, and Something Digital has serviced Nutranext family of brands in building eCommerce for them in the past.

Jackson: [00:26:37] Oh nice.

Phillip: [00:26:37] So I'm just getting that out there so that nobody calls me out that I didn't mention it because we like people who call me out on things.

Jackson: [00:26:47] {laughter}

Phillip: [00:26:47] But it's such an interesting time for a company that I think you don't think... When you think of big CPG, you're probably thinking of PNG and others.

Jackson: [00:27:00] Yeah. And Johnson & Johnson. Pepsi.

Phillip: [00:27:02] Right. Right. Right. Right. And those are... What's interesting is that Clorox is a very big CPG company and does have ownership of a lot of household name brands that you may not think of as Clorox. Do you think that your prior roles and... Do you think that your entrance into leadership of this division is sort of helping bring about change or a different mode of thinking to connect with a new kind of consumer and to maybe tie that back to Clorox being household name as it gives a quality family brands?

Jackson: [00:27:39] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:27:39] I mean, not that it's not quality. I won't qualify it. I'll just leave it out there.

Jackson: [00:27:43] Yeah, I get the question. Well first off, I mean they've done such an amazing job. I mean there's nothing I could do that could maybe make Clorox more credible or more perceived to be quality because the brand is just hundred plus years old. Such a great, rich history. The few products they have, because they're only six billion, and I say only compared to PNG and Johnson & Johnson it is relatively small. But those brands that they do have are number one in their category, maybe number two. Right. So they're very powerful in that respect. There's nothing I could do to add that. They've done such a great job. If anything, if you look at posted lists actually of like the top 10 companies year after year that produced the most CEOs outside of that company. And like the top 10 are obvious. You see Disney, PNG, J & J, but they're like 50 billion. And in Clorox, right. And they're like, I think number seven. So it's really interesting that there's clearly a pedigree and a training you get from Clorox that then prepares you to go into any role. It's really impressive. So for me, nothing I could add there. But to your point, I'd like a different way of thinking, a different mindset. You know, that is my goal, right? Have I done that yet? No, probably not. I mean, I think there's a lot more for us to do. And for me to do. And it's gonna require a lot more people and a lot smarter people than me to help me do that. So we're not there yet. But what is really cool is that everyone at Clorox sees it. Everyone wants to get there. And there's so progressive. I mean, I think, you know, it helps that they're based in Oakland, right. So they're surrounded by technology. They're surrounded. Half of the Clorox folks have come from some kind of tech companies. They get that's where we need to go. And they want to. And that's why they hired me. My boss has been, I mean I hate to keep going back to that, but, you know, a great boss really makes the difference because he creates his pad, especially at my level. You know, I need that internal influence, and he creates opportunities for me to make change. I have autonomy. I'll get tripped up in the Clorox ways of doing things which might take a little longer than I'm used to. But that allows me take advantage of the good things, right? Maybe leave out the not so good things and take advantage of good things to achieve what we need to. So we're not there yet. But I think just the more talks I have and the more integration we have, the more we show results. That's always key. Results speak louder than anything. Against the retail brands the better off we'll be in working toward that transformation you spoke up, so haven't done it yet, but I think we're on the right path. But it's going to take more time for sure.

Brian: [00:29:46] Speaking of results, something we've been kind of thinking about lately is sort of the friction between the brand's storytelling and this brand-less idea. And obviously, we'll see the company Brandless just call it quits.

Jackson: [00:29:57] Yeah. So sad. My Head of Product came from Brandless actually.

Brian: [00:30:02] Oh no kidding.

Jackson: [00:30:02] And her product manager came from Brandless.

Brian: [00:30:04] Wow.

Jackson: [00:30:04] Yeah. Both of them came over a few months ago, and I spent a lot of time talking with them. It's a real bummer. Real sad.

Brian: [00:30:09] It is a real bummer. It is really sad and it's interesting because Brandless in itself kind of was a brand, which is kind of funny. But I think it represented an idea that we're facing right now with just a constant barrage of knockoffs, right? Of alternates that are no name brands. We're seeing them pop up in the thousands on Amazon and just across the board. Traditional brands are facing this pressure from like constant generics and knockoffs. And so one of the things that we've seen is eyeballs win right now. Like, if you can get your product to the by box on Amazon, then you win. Right? What do you think? What do you think is actually more important? You've got such a rich history of Clorox of good brand storytelling and brand value. Where do these two kind of come up against each other? What's more important right now, getting in front of a customer or keeping your brand integrity? {laughter}

Jackson: [00:31:11] That's like a real Sophie's Choice your'e giving me right there.

Brian: [00:31:15] {laughter}

Jackson: [00:31:18] Dude. I don't know. I mean, if I had this answer, I think I would be very rich not talking to you guys right now. I would have my own island, and I'd figure it out. I think both, to be honest. And so here's what I'm grappling with. And, you know, I'll be honest, Clorox, too. I think private brand is real. It's a real trend. Amazon and Costco. Everyone's clearly here to stay. I think private brand has started with certain categories, right? The essentials, you know, paper plates, cups, utensils, trash bags. I think that's where you've seen the quickest growth there. For obvious reasons. If you think about it. Where you see slower growth is more emotionally connected things like, you know, apparel you've seen a little bit. I think you haven't seen it quite with things you consume from like, you know, a health and wellness standpoint. I do think there's still a very important layer brand there. And same with cleaning products. I think people want to know... Or baby products.

Phillip: [00:32:10] Yeah.

Jackson: [00:32:10] I don't think it's penetrated quite yet because there's a lot of like, hey, I needed to make sure this works. I'm willing to pay a premium if I'm going to put on my kid's body or put it in them or I'm going to put it around my house or the dog pees somewhere, what am I going to use? Clorox? Or am I going to use Phillip Jackson's cleaning brand for half the price? Probably going to go with Clorox. Right? So I think there's a correlation there. However, I do think that will start to change itself. There are a lot of private brand diapers. And, you know, if it's from a trusted private brand like Kirkland, might be more willing to do it than just a generic one. I don't think you could separate the two. So I do think brand will always be important, especially if you're new. Because to your point brand is still a brand. The question is, is an Oreo going to matter as much? You know an 80 year old brand... People going to put as much stock in Oreo as they will know the golden rounds cookies or whatever it's called? So I don't know. I think that is where maybe the historical brands that have just put such a premium on, you know us, you trust us. Are they going to be able to do everything the way they've done it in every category? I don't think so. Some categories more so than others. I think Clorox is going to continue to own cleaning and be very effective there. And not to worry so much about private branding. It's my opinion. However, there's other brands in other categories where I think it is a little more concerning, and I think it is a little bit more a sense of urgency of like, hey, how do we defend against this perception of half the price value play, right? It might be the best, it might at last forever or whatever forever is, but I don't need it to last forever. Right? It's just paper plates, for instance. I don't really care about that. But if you're a new brand that said, your brand-less point, you can't not have a brand. Yes. Amazon, whatever. Amazon Basics and Kirkland. But that's still a brand. It's Amazon and it's Costco.

Brian: [00:33:56] Right. Yes.

Jackson: [00:33:56] So like you and me creating a private brand not going to be that effective. But Amazon, Costco, Whole Foods doing it, that's still a brand. It's just a sub brand underneath it. So I don't think brand is still and will always be important. It's just a question of how easily can a brand new brand usurp one of the old school brands? And I think there's a correlation of category and intent, low intent to high intent. And I think low intent is starting to go mid to high intent, especially you putting it in your body or more so your kids body, or your pet's body, that's much, much more difficult. And brand will matter.

Phillip: [00:34:29] Yeah. There's an interesting conversation I recently had with Brian Kennedy of Ministry of Supply. He was saying this to try to move people from rational purchases to emotional purchases and to have this idea that some things are just inherently emotional. If you put something in your body, you probably have some emotion around where it comes from. Like you think about it quite a bit. And, you know, so if you're a new brand, you have a higher bar to clear, to tell a story that will resonate or move someone into that emotional purchase category, to say OK, this is a more rational purchase now because I know more about it. And I think that that's an interesting challenge right now when you have so many players. They said the world didn't need one hundred and seventy five mattress brands, but there seems to be, you know, one hundred seventy five thousand health wellness supplement, you know, herbal homeopathic brands in the world. So I have to believe that a few winners emerge among that and the pie might be growing that more players can have a seat at the table.

Jackson: [00:35:33] Yeah. But I think the question is how long? So I think at any given moment, you can have anyone see a table. I don't think they can all have a seat at table for two, three years. That's the thing. So I think if you look at any given moment, the brands you see today, a year from now there's still might be the same amount or more. I bet a lot of them are gone and new ones have come. I can be there for a hot minute on Instagram advertising, but man if I don't catch fire and I don't have a brand, I don't have some unique differentiation, where am I getting my money from? There's no funding. You look at what Softbank is doing right now. You start to see it's not just about growth but profitability. So, yeah, I think everyone can have a seat at the table for like a second, but not indefinitely. I think that's the challenge. And I would also say, too, it is interesting if you think about like I heard someone say as while ago, I think is the CBD thing, there's around you, there's on you, and in you. And it's always easier to get someone to try around you. That's like maybe aroman, something around you. It's less invasive, less intrusive, lower risk. Candles, for instance. But then on you a little bit more. Lotions, you have conditioner, shampoos, deodorant. That's a little bit more personal, but yeah, you still might be willing to try something maybe quicker than if you put it in you where you're like going to be very sensitive, especially of any kind of allergies or any kind of challenges with your diet. So you think about the barrier around is much easier to crack, on is a little bit easier, but more challenging, and then in you is the hardest to crack in terms of introducing a brand new brand with a whole new value proposition. It's something you don't know and are aware of. So I found that to be an interesting way of breaking it down, too.

Brian: [00:37:06] It's interesting. I love that.

Phillip: [00:37:09] There is an interesting thing that you've spoken about recently or that I found in sort of a pre-show prep about Consumer 3.0. And we've talked about this. I think we've said it in a different way around the expectations of a consumer and how their expectations continue to be heightened by the best in class experiences they get, you know, with companies like Amazon and others. I'm curious how you're rising to meet those expectations or if you believe that those expectations have to become more realistic. As an aside, we had done a market research report recently and some the qualitative feedback around that consumer is saying, you know, we used to worry whether a consumer could afford a brand. And I think now brands worry if they can afford the consumer. And so I think that that's pretty enlightening right now.

Jackson: [00:38:05] {laughter} Yeah. So I'm passionate about this topic and whether we call it 3.0 or 4.0... I don't know what version we're on. Actually someone where I spoke, they just gave me that. And I"m like, "Yeah 3.0 Sounds right." But there are probably like seven versions. Around seven. I don't know. But yes, it's called the current evolution. And I think this spans generations. It's so easy to say it's a Gen Z thing. It's not a Gen Z thing. It's a psychographic thing which might encompass a lot of Gen Z, but it's not a demographic or age thing. I think it's more about just a mindset and maybe influenced by the market you're in. But so I think there're two pieces to this. There's the functionality, like what we're talking about. How quickly you get the product and the value, the price. That's all function. Does it work? Clearly. Those are all to me the very function, which is very important. Right. Amazon's nailing function, almost every aspect of it. But there's also the emotional. And when we talk about brands, that's a good segue actually, because we talk about brand and Old-School brand was like, you got a big celebrity. You do a lot of TV, right? Frequency, frequency, frequency. Now, yeah. I mean, that's important. Sure. Influencers and so forth, blah, blah, blah... But I'd also argue brand now and this does skew a little bit younger, I think, but it's influencing to everyone, is about what you stand for as a brand. And I think this is an important part of your question, so I don't want to segue away from like that value play we're talking about... Delivery... And I think that's where you're getting at. How quick do I get it? The customer experience... But I do think part of that is also what is this brand's role in the world and with my values? It's not to say you're right or left or whatnot. It does not have anything to do with religious beliefs. I think it's truly like, are you giving back? Are you giving back in a way that's more than 1% of my purchase? Are you fundamentally and foundationally a company cares about its employees? Are you foundationally doing something for the greater good in some way? It's doesn't have to be buy one, give one. But are you actually do something bigger than a typical donation? Do you stand for something much more than your sales? Much more than a profit? But knowing that profit is important. And does it alighn with my values? So even if it's a low consideration product, I think that's more more important. But even more so as you get up the consideration value chain. So I do think it's a real big shift we're seeing. I mean, I don't think it's going away anytime soon. And I don't care who is elected president. I think that will continue. I don't think it's tied to our current president. I think we're just seeing this huge shift in starting in North America and Western Europe, but I think will continue to happen around the world, maybe at different paces. So that's one thing I would say. But to your original point, the other piece of the value side and what what is perceived value. So if you're to say that, OK, Amazon. Amazon is all about overnight and probably same day delivery, right. Next three years, easily same-day delivery, everything. Right. And they're already doing it now in some cases. Does that mean everyone has to be same day deliver? Absolutely not. When I was a Boxed... Do you need the 25 pack of mac and cheese the same day? Probably not. Maybe but I would hope not. I don't think you need 25 packs of mac and cheese the same day. I'm exaggerating. But would you like the next two or three days? Or would you want make sure your baby food or diapers are there the next day? I think so. So the question is what is the right amount of value? Is Amazon setting that tone and setting benchmark? For sure. But you have to follow what they're doing? Absolutely not. And expectation isn't that. But is expectation that you know when it's coming, and you have a good sense of that and you know, OK, I'm paying a premium for this, and I'm not going to pay for shipping or if I know I get 50 bucks, I'm not going to pay for shipping. That is changing. Right. The idea that like have dropped a hundred hours with you and I'm still paying for shipping and I don't know when it's coming. That's not going to fly anymore. But if you tell me it's coming three days, there's link transparence. I can link to it. And I've spent a certain amount that feels right, and I'm not paying for shipping. Then it's OK that it's not coming the next day. So I do think there's variables there. And I think that's the thing to think about. It's not just about I can get it to you next day because Amazon is doing it. But they are going to lead the way there in terms of putting pressure on everyone else to get better and faster there, as an example.

Brian: [00:41:45] So you're saying that consumers aren't like... Their expectations aren't like, "I have to have a picture of this on my doorstep in order for me to be happy with my experience when it's delivered."

Jackson: [00:41:57] Right, right.

Brian: [00:41:58] Interesting.

Jackson: [00:41:58] Especially if you're... What's that company? Zazzle or there are a lot these guys. Where you can do like photos and you customize photos from your Instagram and you put it on canvas... So I used that for my parents for Christmas. I did a bunch of photo of our kids and sent them a canvas thing and, you know, got him in three days and I got a note and then they messed up. And then they sent my parents an email right away saying we messed up. And there was a really good customer experience. And what they did, they didn't sell me a hundred of things. They sold me one thing. And it was a very good, clean, easy experience. And is was very transparent. I knew what I was paying for. To me, it was simple is easy. And for the most part, it was seamless. And then when they did mess up, they owned it. They were proactive and got it in front of my parents and myself and say, hey, we fixed it. Here you go. So I think, you know, that to me is a great example of like, OK. It was everything I needed. So what I need that next day when they nailed all the other pieces to it. So I can forgive them for being three days instead of one day, because all the other things were really good. So maybe that's not the best example. But there's a lot of examples like that where it's like, hey, nail the things that really matter. I'll forgive you on three day versus one day.

Brian: [00:43:02] I want to go back something you said a little bit earlier about sort of cultural movement and the fact that this is disconnected from any political environment that we're in, and it's something that's just happening. It's not even necessarily tied to a generation. And so you mentioned you just launched... You're launching the your new in-house wellness brand, Objective Wellness.

Jackson: [00:43:24] Yup.

Brian: [00:43:24] And we noticed that it was, at least in the press release it said it was aimed at Gen X. Talk to me a little bit about like, you know, releasing products for different generations or psychographics, or specifically Objective Wellness. Where are we headed in terms of launching new brands? Does generation really matter or is that actually more of a psychographic that you're going after?

Jackson: [00:43:51] Yeah. No, dude, you're right. It's so funny. I totally contradicted myself. I'm such ones of those marketing D-bags that contradicts themselves. So yes, it is totally psychographic. Honestly I only said Gen X because it was the easiest way for me to convey that mindset. Because it does happen to be very much a large part of this psychographic. It happens to be Gen X, but and I do think there is something with marketing. I do think Gen X is under marketed to, and it is kind of crazy, man. Everyone's talking about boomers. Boomers are the fastest growing eCommerce segment. Go after them. Right? Of course, everyone's talking about millennials. I don't need to tell you that. Now everyone's talking about Gen Z. I mean, everyone is talking about 13 year olds who literally have five dollars between them, has a whole generation to spend. They're like, oh, my God. Gen Z. Gen Z. Gen Z. And I get it. That's the future. But they have no money. And guess what? Guess who their parents are? Guess who the ones who both parents are working and their power is a position in their companies? They're VP's or they're managers or directors, they are running companies... They're traveling. They grew up in technology. It's Gen Xers who are their parents. Gen Xers in their early 30s, 40s and 50s are the people who had the most influence at this point in time on Gen Z. And yet no one's talking about Gen Xers. There this forgotten generation, and I'm biased. I'm at the end of millenial and beginning of Gen X. But man, we are the generation that the boomers took forever to retire. That's a known fact. Now they're starting to come out of the workforce. Now Gen Xers are moving into roles and positions of power and they're running companies. And no longer do you have, for instance, the moms traditional stereotype of the mom of the CEO of the household. You always heard that the mom is the CEO of the household. No. Mom is the CEO of a company. Right. And maybe dads at home or maybe dad's a freelancer. And that's becoming more and more common. This is a whole shift of mindset of how they think. They grew up in eCommerce, and dude, they literally watched Amazon launch as a bookstore and turn into what it is now. Their whole mindset is so different than that of a boomer. They've dealt with a lot of change and a lot of turbulence. And they grew up in the 80s and 90s, which is very, very unique mindset in my opinion. So I actually think there's so much opportunity to talk to them. They have a lot of money. They influence the most and arguably the most influential future generation right now in Gen Z, and no one is talking to them. So that was really my perspective in terms of why I thought that was an opportunity. A sandwich generation. But to your point, it is definitely a psychographic as well as I think about who we're going after there. And that stems into millennials as well.

Brian: [00:46:02] I think that's really, really interesting to me. You know, I love your focus on Gen X because who gave Gen Z their values? Who raised them?

Jackson: [00:46:13] It's crazy. Yeah.

Brian: [00:46:14] There might be more in common between Gen Xers and Gen Z than there is between millennials and Gen Z.

Jackson: [00:46:19] There's actually an article that talked about just that. It's that how Gen Zs are so influenced, more than millennials are by boomers. They're so influenced by Gen X in terms of their values, what they matter. If you think about what Gen X grew up in. Like they came out of the 70s, right?

Phillip: [00:46:33] Yup.

Jackson: [00:46:33] They came out of like, you know, Woodstock kind of generation. They weren't around for that. They were young for that. But they really grew up in the 70s and 80s. And that was very much about all love, and it was all about coming together and it was all about welcoming differences. I mean, think of the 80s. Man, 80s was like a sexual revolution in a lot of ways. And now we're seeing a sexual revolution happen again 40 years later. It kind of whittled down in the 90s. Now you're seeing like the Gen Z kids. Look at them. They're as open minded with their sexuality as we've ever seen, probably since the 70s and 80s. So I think there's definitely a correlation in my mind to that, and I think it extends to a lot of different values.

Phillip: [00:47:10] This has been amazing. I feel like you should be a third host of the show.

Jackson: [00:47:15] I don't know. You guys set the bar. You guys have an awesome show. I'm a big fan.

Phillip: [00:47:20] Thank you so much. We appreciate that. That'll definitely become a pull quote on our website somewhere.

Jackson: [00:47:26] {laughter}

Phillip: [00:47:26] And you know, one thing that we usually close the show by asking you to predict the future a bit because we are called Future Commerce. We've sort of changed that narrative a bit to say like the future is what you make of it. You should shape your future. Is there something in the next, say, three to five years that, you know, retail operators or, you know, operators at retail brands could do to have an effect on the way that consumers are shopping or the way that they're engaging in the world? Do you think that brands have that power? And if so, like, what can we do to use that power in an effective way?

Jackson: [00:48:03] Yeah, I do. And I think I hate to get all, like, you know, kumbayah froufrou about it. I think they generally have to care. Like, I you know, I gotta be honest. I'm watching. I don't mean to go political. I'm watching a lot of things happen in political landscape from all sides. And it's sad and saddens me. There's like honesty. There's like a transparency. It's all the same old. And it just I feel like I want someone to come out there... And say what you want about Mark Cuban. I like him because he is so honest. He's just so direct and so genuinely honest. Now, you could say Trump's honest, too. But he is just so offensive. Like, I can't get my head around it, you know, to be quite honest. Cuban is very honest about what he thinks and what he feels about where we are. And I feel like there's this opportunity for brands to have a similar kind of honesty in terms of what they stand for, what they don't, what they're going to do. I think Everlane and Allbirds have done this really well. I relate to transparency in the supply chain and the cogs and how much profit they're making. My God, how amazing and refreshing is that right? So you're making 50% margin. I mean, they really expose themselves. It was like, hey, you know, we are making money out of this. Right. And here's why we have to. I love that. Allbirds calling out Amazon. Trying to knock them up. Amazing. That was pretty risky on their part, to be honest. Amazon's known to crush you if you take them on. So, like, I just think there's a need for brands to even further go even further with how they care. Maybe it's just about care. I think we should just care about each other more right now. I get it. Get me out Kumbayah. But I just feel like it's all about division and like pointing about differences and like digging in. It's like, man, I just... It's just it's too much sometimes, and I do think brands should and need to play a role. For profit and nonprofit alike should play a role in caring, being transparent, being honest with each other. And if we can start to at least have that conversation and start at that ground level, that's expectation, not like, oh my God, you're so amazing or transparent, then everything else on top that becomes just a really wonderful place for us to then make our choices versus having to choose from lesser of evils. So for me, I don't know, like it extends beyond brands. I do think brands play a role. Absolutely.

Phillip: [00:49:56] That's a phenomenal place to end it. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. Jackson, for joining us.

Brian: [00:50:02] So good.

Jackson: [00:50:02] Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. Hopefully I didn't swear too much, and the beeping out isn't too cumbersome to the flow.

Phillip: [00:50:08] No, it's fantastic. Well, thank you so much. And thanks for listening. If you want to drop us a line, let you know what you are doing and your company may be working to CPG, you know, organization. You're trying to create next generation of consumer packaged goods and you're focusing on demographics, psychographics. Or maybe you have some feedback for Jackson. Send it over to us at Hello@FutureCommerce.fm

Jackson: [00:50:27] Or maybe, "That was full of crap."

Phillip: [00:50:32] I didn't want to say it, but that's usually the email we get. So it's ok.

Jackson: [00:50:37] {laughter} I would anticipate it, but I'd actually love to hear it if that was the case. I'd love to have dialog with anyone who disagrees. I think that would be really fun actually.

Brian: [00:50:44] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:50:44] Yeah, that's great. I love continuing the dialog. Thank you so much, Jackson. Thanks for listening.

Jackson: [00:50:49] Thank you.

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