Communicating Context Across Cultures

Communicating Context Across Cultures

Episode 373 | feat. Phoebe Yu

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Phillip: [00:01:21] Hello, and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast at the intersection of culture and commerce. I'm Phillip.

Brian: [00:01:25] I'm Brian.

Phillip: [00:01:26] And I'm really pumped today, Brian. I have what I believe is the most incredible TikTok and YouTube algorithm. I don't know if you would agree with me, Brian, but I have a very manicured algorithm.

Brian: [00:01:40] You do.

Phillip: [00:01:41] Very, very intentional about the things that I engage with, I like to think. And there's a certain type of a content creator that's showing up in my feed more often as somebody that sort of explains the world around us, does it from a very specific point of view. Someone I've mentioned a lot on this show is Dami Lee, who has really made this idea of architecture really accessible to a lot of folks and examines that in philosophy and psychology and really makes that and packages up in a brilliant way. And I was, like, "Why isn't someone doing this in UX and UI design in the context of ecommerce and specifically in usability and cultural differences there?" And then that person shows up in my feed. So, Brian, I'm really pumped today to have them join us for the very first time. I'd like to welcome Phoebe Yu, UX designer and content creator who is growing an incredible YouTube presence, and elsewhere on the Internet. Welcome to the show, and welcome to Future Commerce for the first time, Phoebe.

Phoebe: [00:02:43] Hi. Hi, Phillip. Hi, Brian. How are you guys?

Brian: [00:02:46] Good. Good.

Phillip: [00:02:48] So good.

Phoebe: [00:02:48] Thanks so much for having me.

Phillip: [00:02:49] How long have you been creating this type of content?

Phoebe: [00:02:52] As of now, around 5 months.

Phillip: [00:02:56] Okay.

Phoebe: [00:02:57] I started this May.

Phillip: [00:02:58] Oh, fantastic. What was the impetus? What made you want to create content online, about this specific subject matter, usability of websites?

Phoebe: [00:03:09] Yeah. It is a funny story because it started around a year ago when I got COVID for the second time. This was during school. So what happened was when we get COVID, we kinda have to self isolate. And I don't know, American college dorms, they're not the biggest. I'm stuck in this, I don't know, 6 feet by 6 feet kinda situation, and it was excruciating just staying here for however long, doing nothing. And I grew up with content on YouTube, and I was kind of consuming content along the way. But I've always wanted to be on the other side making the content as well, so I thought that this would be the perfect time to try out content creation. And so I actually started on TikTok first just to warm up for YouTube, and that was fun. It was fast. And when I got out of isolation, school kind of went on, and during the months of January till May, our school has a study abroad program. And so I was traveling to Japan, France, and Italy during that time. It was more like I wanted to dedicate this time to learn and experience these new things while I can. So I parked content creation until May, and this was when I was in Cleveland. I was doing my internship at Visa as a UX designer. And instead of continuing to still warm up with TikTok, I was like, "What am I warming up for? I'll just start a YouTube channel."

Brian: [00:05:04] Nice.

Phillip: [00:05:06] What was the concept for the first idea? I talk to a lot of content creators, and often, it's sort of the first one feels like it's this monumental thing. It's probably the idea that's been bubbling in your head for a long, long time, but you already had this content creation muscle that you'd been building for some time. So what was it like coming up with the concept for the first video?

Phoebe: [00:05:27] The very first video I posted now is a bit different than what I currently post, but I went into YouTube with the hope of helping fellow UX designers who are just getting into the industry navigate what UX design is, how to prepare portfolios, how to prepare for interviews. So my very first video was just how to get started in UX design in 2024. And that was... I'm glad I started with that one because it was helpful in answering the very fundamental questions that I get a lot from fellow students or fellow people transitioning between jobs. But it also helped me figure out what exactly is the UX design. It's such a new concept. And when you look at the time span of the entire tech sector, it's like a newer concept. And I was trying to grapple why do we exist? What is our purpose in designing? So that was the very first video. And then the video that unexpectedly really took off was later on when I made a video on Japanese web design.

Phillip: [00:06:52] Mhmm.

Phoebe: [00:06:53] And I made this video because I wanted to first synthesize what I experienced when I was in Kyoto previously last semester studying abroad. And then there were two videos, there were two or three videos already made about Japanese web design on YouTube. One is from design theory, and the other one is from Answer in Progress. And I think they were getting at a really important thing that is we see, for example, Yahoo Japan. The website, if you look at it now, it looks identical to what it looked like a decade ago or two decades ago. It's very information heavy. Everything's kind of just in your face, and it just seems, like, outdated. But there's a reason why they've kept it there ever since, and turns out there are a lot of cultural and practical reasons to why they still keep that interface design. So I kind of went down the rabbit hole of that, and that brought me to the Japanese web design video.

Phillip: [00:08:13] And that's the one, that's how I discovered your channel and very excited to see you grow over time. Some of the topics I think that you've covered so far are minimalism and design versus maximalism or sort of how there's a certain type of an aesthetic with, like, Temu or Shein where it feels very gamified, feels very frenetic. And in that way, it's, like, very sensorial. It's overload. And you sort of contrast that with other sort of cultural practices and things that we might see in more US-centric designs for a lot of information streamlining, maybe hiding information in such a way that leads you into a path. Maybe talk a little bit about the the content journey. What has been the arc of the content, and are you following what your audience is giving you feedback on?

Phoebe: [00:09:11] Yeah. Right after that Japanese web design video, there was this surge in interest about how do different cultures impact user perception, user behavior. And people wanted to learn about Chinese web design, Indian web design. There were lots of requests for all these different countries, and I was also trying to see if there are big patterns between how the east and the west kind of user groups behave similarly or differently. But as I was doing this research, I realized that it is insightful to find a pattern within a culture and want to apply it to a certain user group, but it's just as easy to generalize too much and say that because this has worked for this group of East Asian users, it must work for this other group. So I think this whole journey has been a big learning process, and I make it very clear that feel free to say whatever in the comments. Like, good, bad, just whatever thought you have and whatever story you can share, that is the most valuable to me as someone who puts research first. [00:10:39] Research is always iterating just like designs. So I really wanna keep that active research going, including participation from the audience. [00:10:50]

Brian: [00:10:51] I love this. I think content's not king. Context is. Right? And so as you think... I love that you've sort of as you've looked at broader pictures, you're like, wait a minute. These broader pictures really only have application in certain contexts. And the further down you go, the more you realize experiences are so individual and what works for one brain or one set of context doesn't work for another person very well. I think this is why in the US in particular, I think you've seen a lot of simplification and streamlining because they're trying to break it down to something that's really broadly applicable within the US. But I am curious. There's the Marshall McLuhan who's a media cultural sort of icon that we have been heavily in influenced by at Future Commerce. He talked about...

Phillip: [00:11:54] You say we and, really, it's a lot of you. But, yes...

Brian: [00:11:59] Mmmm. No. Sorry, Phillip. You've been influenced too. He talked a lot about the influence of the east coming into the west and how it had changed a lot of our our thinking and our thought processes due to electronic communication and how things are becoming more auditory in nature. And so, I'm curious, have you done any studies in the evolution of UX design? And like you said, it is sort of a new sort of part of technology, although it's sort of been baked in to technology forever. Right? And so we have become a lot more intentional, and it's become a much bigger practice, in the past 30, 40 years. But it's something that's sort of always been inherent in tool design. And so I'm curious. Have you started to notice any trends or movements that are passing between cultures? What does work, and what have you seen kind of over time?

Phoebe: [00:13:06] Yeah. There's this whole world of design trends, and we can get very specific. For example, Apple, I think during their shift from iOS 6 to 7, there's this big shift away from skeuomorphism. The concept is that you want to mimic things to look and feel like the way they do in the physical world. I think a big thing that we notice now with how these trends differ between cultures is that some trends really do only work in some cultures and not others. When I posted the Japanese web design video, there's this comment made by someone. "Japan has been living in the year 2000 since 1980."

Phillip: [00:13:56] Wow.

Phoebe: [00:13:57] So what this means is in 1980, they had this kind of design and technology that seems so futuristic at the time. They were ahead of everything. But then when like, now in 2024, they still stuck with that same design.

Phillip: [00:14:16] Mhmm.

Phoebe: [00:14:17] They still stick with the same designs right now because that has been what has worked. And so [00:14:23] that trend that we see of them developing something so advanced, but then sticking with that until technology is even more advanced, that's pretty specific to Japan. And I'm sure other cultures have their similar, unique kind of trends that they follow. [00:14:40]

Phillip: [00:14:40] There's this leapfrog effect, I think, that happens with early adopters. Brian, we see this a lot in early adopters in ecommerce. Right? So they jumped on the bandwagon. They put in a lot of software, and then they're stuck with that software for 10, 11, 12 years. And the late adopters look as if they've leapfrogged them in this, in technological advancement. In reality, it's just about when you implemented the technology, it kind of becomes an aesthetic. You sort of get fixed in a point in time. And then culturally, that's what's accepted. Right? So then we sort of play to that norm over time. So this Y2K aesthetic seems to be coming back in the United States, and I think that's because we're very rooted in nostalgia. So it's not necessarily one thing, but it's like the one thing for us is bringing it back and reviving old design trends. Do you think that there could be a more abstract way of thinking about this, Phoebe? Are there other cultures in society that have this playing into and taking that into account? I'm thinking about China in particular and how they really are coming online in the last, you know, 20 years in force. How are they building right now, and how is that influencing us? Thinking more abstractly is the American point of view. We are not necessary... I wouldn't consider that we're fixed in time in one design aesthetic, so we're different in that way. But the way that we tend to follow design trends in the last 15 or 20 years do seem to be nostalgic in nature. So we are fixed in a mode, but that mode is nostalgia, and the design trends tend to favor that mode of thinking. So I was sort of drawing a similarity and dissimilarity between the way that maybe there's one way that design presents itself in one culture and another for us, but maybe it's more abstract. It's more rooted in nostalgia. For me, when I was growing up, it was poodle skirts and greasers. But, you know, today, it's a Y2K aesthetic. We're constantly looking back to look forward.

Phoebe: [00:16:56] Gotcha. I think if we talk about how say, how China has design trends that are specifically catered towards the Chinese audience and how that is different than how, like, say, Americans develop designs and kind of come back to old designs... I think that does relate to how those users tend to perceive information in the first place, regardless if we're talking about technology or not. One example I'll make with China and Japan, like, East Asian cultures, when it comes to information, it's not necessarily that we have to progressively disclose information like we do here in the States. That is a very popular design term, "progressive disclosure," where you just release things one at a time. We see Apple do this really well on their marketing websites with the iPads and phones. As you scroll, different things pop up in, like, one at a time. Right? But if we go to East Asian market and try to do that, what those users might think is, "Am I getting enough information from this website in the first place? What is it trying to hide from me? Why can't I see all of these things at once? Because I'm used to seeing a lot of information in one page." That's just how content has been provided, and that usually means this thing is trustworthy because it has a lot of content. If you're progressively disclosing things, "What are you hiding," almost. And that has to do with how Eastern versus Western users perceive different amounts of information.

Brian: [00:20:32] This is inspiring all kinds of thoughts for me because I do think that information is absorbed emotionally as much as it is absorbed through our logical minds. And design itself is language. Right? And so we often learn design when we're children, or sorry. We learn language when we're children. I think we learn design when we're children as well, just like we learn language. We're absorbing how to process things, and we do that through a very emotional engagement with it. And I do wonder, Phillip, this is just musing, but what you were saying about Americans being nostalgic for things. I wonder if that has to do with actually absorbing information. One of the reasons why we wanna go back to things that are familiar to us is because that's the best way for us to get that information. We feel like we can get that information better. Just like the language that we learned when we were children is the easiest way for us to absorb words. And so when things change and we're moved on to something that's completely different and things do move culturally very, very quickly in the US, I wonder if that is why we end up coming back to some of these things from the era that we felt like was our era that we absorbed that design mindset. And perhaps one of the reasons why Japan or other eastern cultures is perhaps culture isn't moving quite as quickly in those places. They absorbed that information in that format, and it's a little bit more static in terms of why would we change it? This is what we've learned it in. I don't know. I'm just pontificating a little bit, but I do think there's something there.

Phillip: [00:22:37] I'd love to hear what you think, Phoebe. I've always been skeptical of some of the the thought leadership that says something like, "TikTok's search and user generated content will replace Google." And the way I refute that is to say, "But TikTok is a stream and Google is dense information." So I can scroll quickly and get a lot of information density and take a lot of info in with a glance on something like a Google, which provides me with all types of ways to refine search or for shopping. It's, you know, it's very grid heavy. I see things like promotions, deals, data points, pricing information, locale, how close it is to me, whether a store has it in stock near me. I get all of this at a glance. I have to watch someone's day in the life video for 45 seconds to get anywhere near that information about one product, but I do get a different type of information. It's a different type of density, but it's a stream over a highly dense style of presentation. So, Phoebe, I'm not sure if that is also a cultural difference in the way I'm perceiving that. I think a lot of people like to look at things like that and say, "Well, the future of commerce is something like a TikTok because it's information, but it's entertainment based." And I say I don't know that we can fully replace this modality of dense information. But I see that we're all circling a similar conversation here. Maybe you can help us become more specific about it, Phoebe.

Phoebe: [00:24:16] Yeah. Absolutely. When it comes to density of information, we can look at two things that might differ based on where the user group comes from, what culture they come from. One thing relates to that user's amount of risk avoidance, and the second point is about how they communicate. So do they communicate in a way that is lower context or higher context? So I can break this down with the first point of risk avoidance. So have you guys heard of the Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions before?

Phillip: [00:24:56] It was in one of your videos, but I wasn't very familiar prior.

Brian: [00:25:02] Same. Yeah.

Phoebe: [00:25:03] Essentially, it's a framework that helps people understand the relationship between users' behavior and their culture. And it was this researcher, I think in the 1980s, he conducted this huge survey, huge research around a 100,000 IBM employees, and they had all of them fill out a big questionnaire. It gives clarity on how different users, different employees from different countries value certain ideas. And [00:25:39] what was found is that Eastern cultures tend to have a higher uncertainty avoidance than Western cultures. So this kind of partially explains why, for example, when a company wants to develop a game, for example, Nintendo in Japan, when they're developing games, they want to test an idea, run it through multiple user groups, iterate it over and over, keep beta testing, and make sure that it's absolutely as perfect as it can be before releasing it out into the market. Whereas a Western company that is more prone to taking risks might have a list of ideas that they want to implement, and they just put it out in the market, see how it does, probably sunset a bunch of those projects. So they have this more trial and error mentality. [00:26:42] And so going back to user experience and how different users perceive information, it makes sense how some users would prefer to use designs that they have seen before. It feels familiar. They're not taking as much risk. They know that this will yield them the information they need versus a user who is more willing to embrace this change. Like, "Sure. We haven't seen this kind of landing page ever, but I'm down to try and see what it does."

Phillip: [00:28:19] You touched on another facet there where we were talking about sort of the information density piece. Is there something else to add on to that? I just wanna make sure that you had opportunity to finish all the thoughts there.

Phoebe: [00:28:37] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, yeah, Brian was saying that why Zelda Tears of the Kingdom took so long to come out. They wanted to make sure it's good before anyone is able to play it. But, yeah, Phillip, back to your point, there is a second part of this information density idea, and that is how different users communicate in their cultures. So low versus high context. [00:29:09] In a low context culture, people tend to communicate more directly, more explicitly, and in a high context culture, people would communicate in a more nuanced, more implicit kind of way. [00:29:23] So a popular example is if your neighbor had a kid playing piano at 2 am every night, and it's causing you to lose sleep, if you were in a low context culture, you might just go up to their door, knock on their door, and be like, "Please stop. I'm trying to sleep." But if you're in a high context culture, you might actually wait till the very next day, bump into them at a grocery store, and say, "You know, your kid actually plays piano really well." Yeah. When in reality, you just want them to, like, "Stop." But in a high context culture, if the neighbor was also in a high context culture, they would understand this as a cue to lower the volume. So that is kind of a difference in how people communicate in different cultures, and that translates to how information is presented in designs. And that if you see a page with a lot of information in a more high context culture scenario, people would see this as, "Okay, this is just the right amount of information I need because I know nothing can be communicated that directly. And because there's information, I feel a sense of reassurance and trust in this source." Does that make sense?

Phillip: [00:30:49] Oh, yeah. I think it makes perfect sense. And when we're thinking about, you know, often the conversation, especially in the ecommerce realm about usability, it comes down to really, it's a discourse about friction. What are the things that create opportunities for people to lose interest or become distracted? Things that drive caution to them. So we try to do the inverse of that. Right? We want to reassure people. We want to remove barriers to making a decision about payment. If I have to get up and get my credit card out of my wallet then that's a point of friction for me. So a lot of the discourse, at least in the US around ecommerce usability has been around that. It's like removing friction. But maybe, correct me if I'm wrong, what I hear you saying is that friction itself can also be cultural. And what is friction for one person or one group of people may not be for another. So maybe there's a future coming where we get a little better at this or we have the ability to deliver different types of experiences to different types of people. I think we probably instinctively do this already for the largest of companies. The Yahoo US website doesn't look like the Yahoo Japan website. Maybe you could prognosticate a bit on what you think we'll have to overcome in the future to deliver more specific experiences to more people.

Phoebe: [00:32:19] Exactly as you said. It's very easy to make these conclusions that [00:32:24] it is always good to reduce user friction no matter what. We have to look at things contextually and see how that friction serves how that user feels about a certain service, a certain platform. [00:32:41] So I do agree that we want to help users get from point A to point B and help them make this a pleasurable experience. But sometimes, when they do experience friction in the form of like, they're trying to find information about a product, but we present them more information than they ask for kind of along the way, things that they might not have known is important information, but it's very valuable to their purchasing decision... This kind of friction, I think, in a higher context culture, is fine because they learn what they need to learn, and they feel informed. And that's the most important part of it. Of course, if they already know that they want to buy the product, there's no, like, learning required, then we want to help them be able to buy the product as soon as possible. So in the future, when we're kind of becoming a globalized economy, you know, people are shopping from all over the world, and we're trying to localize different products to different places, we want to think of how the users in those different locations already behave with their environment, and this could be doing research about their behavior with existing local products and technology, or it could be outside of the tech realm in general, like, how they interact with restaurants or grocery stores in their daily surrounding. I think whoever is building the product, immersing themselves in that exact environment is the most important part of creating a tailored experience.

Brian: [00:34:33] We've talked a lot about East versus West. We didn't really get into minimalism versus maximalism, but also even country to country, culture to culture. Obviously, different cultures have different viewpoints and provide base contextual cues for people. Individuals also have cues. And while collectivist societies typically tend to have a little bit less diversity potentially between the way that people think, at minimum, somewhere like the US has, well, very, very high individuality. People think a lot a lot of different ways. And especially, well, it's a difficult context to navigate because it feels like there's so many contexts. As you think about addressing US markets' UX position, somehow minimalism and maximalism are both trending at the same time and also all kinds of other ways of thinking about how to engage with people are happening all at one time. How do you address all of it? In a culture that's so mixed bag and people are... There are high context people here and low context people here. There are all kinds of people here. What do you do? How do you deal with so much diversity?

Phoebe: [00:36:11] When it comes to a population that is already diverse in nature, I think this when it feels easiest to follow design trends. Things that have worked for a specific population group, you would assume that it's worked so well in this one group. It has to work for more people. But I think instead of jumping directly to conclusions of what trend works better, we have to do our own due diligence and research. And I'm glad that user research, user experience research, all of this is becoming a very important thing, but UX, before recent years, there is a big group that sees it as a marketing and branding tool, purely from a what does it look like perspective. And I think that now, we really need to think of it as a usability function. People go on to different websites to try to get things done, and we need to think from the user's perspective of what the happiest path to getting that thing done is. So I guess, this question is a really good one because we haven't seen the world this globalized until today. This is a very, definitely a big thing, I feel like, in the United States where people come from a bunch of different places, and, of course, in the more globalized cities all around the world as well. Yeah. This is an ongoing question, and I would say keep digging into existing research and conduct new research if you have the means to.

Phillip: [00:38:06] It interesting when I think about the larger software suites and how they... Shopify is a really good example, Brian, where it started out as a catalog management shopping tool, but now it has finance products, now it has analytics, and now it has multilingual capabilities. It has, you know, a designer inside of it. Stripe is another example. It has itself 13 or 14 different products that you can engage with within one panel. It seems like what they're asking of any given user is less about this informational navigational pathway that we're trying to create journeys for people and more about people being able to converse with the system. So both Shopify and Stripe have a sort of a they're pushing you now to Command K. That is like a new usability pattern.

Brian: [00:39:05] Mmhmm.

Phillip: [00:39:06] Go and start looking for the thing you want, and you will find it. If you start searching for a user's name, then we'll push you towards a customer panel. If you start searching for the word tax, we're gonna push you towards tax solution. You telling us in this relationship is now a dialogue. It's not just that you're using this, it's not just a trail or a path that we're trying to create and make it very obvious and create, primary, secondary, tertiary paths for people based on what they typically do. It's about you being able to talk back to the system. And I think that's a new paradigm, especially in dense products where it's like we don't have a choice. We actually have to sort of have one panel for lots of people to begin their journey. I think that's a really exciting thing, and it makes me also wonder and maybe we can touch on this quickly, and then I wanna talk a little bit about YouTube channel and the plans you have, Phoebe, especially as you come up towards graduation and beyond. But what do you think about the WeChat of it all? Is there a coming UI-less future where we have more conversational based experiences with brands? Because that seems to be something that a lot of folks are predicting, and it's very popular in other regions. What do you think?

Phoebe: [00:40:28] Talking to technology, conversing with technology is a very prominent trend now, especially as we see ChatGPT, Gemini, all these dialogue-based tech coming through. It does give users a sense of autonomy. It probably helps them get to where they want faster because they are the ones controlling this journey. Exactly as you said, instead of trying to predict different user flows and different paths that people can take and designing around that, why don't we have the user's input as soon as possible, as directly as possible? So, yes, I think this is a very possible path that not just ecommerce, but tech in general is heading. I think this just begs the question of what can we do with the information that the user inputs to make sure that we still help them get to where they want to go? If the user input is incorrect or if it doesn't yield any results, then where do we point them? There's a typo or something. Are we trying to, are we going to start assuming what they meant to say? And then how would we be able to do that? How would we be able to, I guess, read their minds for lack of a better term? But I think that this direction towards having the user input come first before us trying to predict things is a good way to go.

Phillip: [00:42:05] It seems like all paths are pointing in that direction. I'm really interested to see how brand experiences come through in that future. I don't know that the future is literally like a WhatsApp chat or literally a ChatGPT dialogue, but I think that we might see facets of that come into...

Brian: [00:42:23] Maybe.

Phillip: [00:42:24] Maybe. I'm just really pumped to see you start this content journey. Phoebe, what's next? What are you working on right now, and what's interesting you for building more content?

Phoebe: [00:42:37] I think my North Star for content as of now is whatever people are asking questions about. [00:42:47] There is an inherent sense of curiosity when it comes to how different cultures operate because we, us, personally, we grew up in a specific culture, and it's easy to think that that is just how things are done across the board. But then when you realize there are different people doing things in a different way, that it might shatter your existing notions about certain things, and that raises a lot of questions of how things can be done. [00:43:17] And my goal is to not only answer some of those questions, but also make it clear that there are gonna be more questions coming up. So it's gonna be a curiosity-driven channel with the focus on research, human psychology, and culture. And the topics I cover might kind of stay within the tech sector, but if something interesting comes up, I would love to kind of delve into just whatever we can jump into rabbit holes in. I will try to cover that.

Phillip: [00:43:54] I love that. Can you give us a preview on is there a video coming in the future? Are you working on something at this exact moment?

Phoebe: [00:44:00] Yeah. So before this call, I actually just published a video on Japanese game design.

Phillip: [00:44:06] Oh, wow.

Phoebe: [00:44:07] So, Brian, you commented about Tears of the Kingdom. I think you might like that video.

Brian: [00:44:11] I think I will.

Phillip: [00:44:13] I'll go check it out. Phoebe, where can people find you online? How can we subscribe? We'll put the link in the show notes, but give us a little voice over on how people can connect.

Phoebe: [00:44:22] Yeah. Of course. Feel free to comment in the YouTube video. So my YouTube channel, just my name, Phoebe Yu. I'd love to hear your thoughts on any of this on the topics covered in the videos, but also just culture in general, your personal take on these. Feel free to shoot me an email too. I'll also include it in the notes. And, yeah, I also have LinkedIn. Feel free to connect there and slide into DMs. I'm super open to any kind of conversation.

Phillip: [00:44:55] Appreciate it. And you really should check it out. Phoebe Yu, student at Vanderbilt. And heading into the next phase in your career. What are you gonna pursue? Do you know? Do you have any early ideas what the career path might look like?

Phoebe: [00:45:08] I'll keep jumping down the rabbit hole of UX Design.

Phillip: [00:45:10] Yeah.

Brian: [00:45:12] Nice.

Phoebe: [00:45:13] That'll be the next thing.

Phillip: [00:45:15] Fantastic. And you really should subscribe to Phoebe Yu over on YouTube. Thank you so much for joining us, Phoebe.

Phoebe: [00:45:22] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Phillip: [00:45:24] Thanks for checking out this episode of Future Commerce. You can find more episodes of this podcast and all Future Commerce properties of FutureCommerce.com. Join the membership, Future Commerce Plus unlocks six different Visions events, and we just closed one just this last, two weeks ago. And all of that content is live right now for our members from the Future Commerce Summit, the Vision Summit in LA. Go get it right now at FutureCommerce.com/Plus. Thanks for listening to this episode of Future Commerce.