Economists Fight Club

Phillip: [00:01:15] Hello [00:01:00] and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast about the next generation of commerce. I'm Phillip. [00:01:20]

Brian: [00:01:20] And I'm Brian.

Phillip: [00:01:21] Today we are... Well, we're going to have a little bit of a moment where we bask in our own glory.

Brian: [00:01:28] {laughter}

Phillip: [00:01:28] Six months of work has finally come to fruition yesterday, by the time you listen to this. Yesterday we launched our newest research report. Visions 2022 is out. [00:01:40] We won't bother you too much about it because you are going to hear so much over the next 2 to 3 months. But Visions is over 100 pages of deep and insightful things that we think are affecting how commerce will shape up in the next few years. And so you can get the entirety of it, including our [00:02:00] podcast and YouTube series. You can get it at Visions.report. Brian, congrats man. It took a long time to get this done.

Brian: [00:02:11] My gosh, you too. This is the most ambitious thing we've ever done. {laughter}

Phillip: [00:02:15] It really is. It really is. I couldn't be more proud of the team, couldn't be more proud of the things [00:02:20] that we put a lot of thought into, and people seem to be having the reaction that I wanted.

Brian: [00:02:29] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:02:30] Yeah.

Brian: [00:02:30] Yeah, I mean, we've had some great dialog about this report already, and that's what I really want is for it [00:02:40] to spur people to think and to talk and well ultimately to make better decisions. But yeah, I think the intended outcome is that people are talking about things that are important, that are actually  [00:03:00]happening, that aren't just a rehash of all the things that have already been said.

Phillip: [00:03:05] And so without us retreading the things that we've already said, I think they're said very eloquently and with a lot of thought and intention put behind it in our report. Go get it. Visions.report. Yeah. Okay. How [00:03:20] do we shift gears? Jay Powell, homie. 75 basis points. We're fighting inflation, baby.

Brian: [00:03:30] Not just once, but did I just read potentially twice?

Phillip: [00:03:34] There is going to be a lot.

Brian: [00:03:35] This is going to happen again in July.

Phillip: [00:03:37] We're not going to... It's [00:03:40] bringing a bazooka instead of a fly swatter. There's a really interesting active thread on Twitter. There are two of them that I've been tracking simultaneously. The first was [00:03:51] we're also seeing retail sales data showing that retail sales haven't slowed down. I think the [00:04:00] Commerce Department report that just came out yesterday, I believe, landed up at almost 8% year over year growth, which almost tracks direct to inflation. So the consumer, in general, seems to be fairly unfazed by the recession that we're all willing [00:04:20] into being with all of our thought leadership. So while tech is hurting, jobs don't seem to be imperiled outside of tech, and spending doesn't seem to be slowing down despite pain at the pump. So stagflation? Where [00:04:39] are we right now, Brian? [00:04:40] Neither of us are economists, and we don't play one on TV.

Brian: [00:04:43] You know what we need to do is we need to have an actual economist on this show.

Phillip: [00:04:46] Or two of them. I want to watch them fight. We should do an economist fight club.

Brian: [00:04:51] That would be a really cool podcast. It probably already exists. That's probably already a thing. Economists Fight Club. I feel like if it doesn't exist, [00:05:00] it should. Every time we have a good idea, we just go Google it and it already exists.

Phillip: [00:05:04] It already exists. It's really nothing new under the sun. Oh, man, you know what would be awesome is an economist rap battle.

Brian: [00:05:12] I feel like economists would be mediocre at rapping. Maybe I'm [00:05:20] stereotyping right now. But that's just...

Phillip: [00:05:22] "My money don't jiggle, it folds..." That's the economist rap. I don't know. You're not on TikTok, so you don't get the TikTok reference there. But that's okay.

Brian: [00:05:30] No, I don't. I'm TikTok free at this point in my life. I watch all the TikToks you send me, though.

Phillip: [00:05:39] The ones I send you. Those are the ones you're [00:05:40] caught up on.

Brian: [00:05:42] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:05:42] Economically, while everybody's sort of musing about whatever's happening in the economy, you, however, Mr. Brian Lange, you're going bougie. I want to start a new segment on Future Commerce called "Brian Goes Bougie." [00:06:00] And the music, there will be a stinger, and the music will be like "Brian goes bougie," you know, that kind of thing.

Brian: [00:06:06] I'm kind of into that. I feel like I've gone bougie a few times in different ways, but I've never gone full bougie.

Phillip: [00:06:13] No, no. I just like you doing things that are sort of like out of character for you. You're [00:06:20] the Costco guy.

Brian: [00:06:23] I'm the Costco guy.

Phillip: [00:06:23] You're the Costco guy. I think there's going to be a lot more Costco guys in the next six months.

Brian: [00:06:30] Everyone's going to discover, everyone that's out of touch with America's spending habits, like general spending habits, they're all going to be like, "Wait a minute, [00:06:40] I spent how much on that? And I can get it at Costco basically the same product for how much?"

Phillip: [00:06:45] Exactly. Yeah. There's going to be a lot of spending sobriety. I think a lot of folks are going to have a moment of "Why was I spending $100 on candles?" he said [00:07:00] to himself softly.

Brian: [00:07:03] $100 a week? A month? What was the frequency there? You just said $100.

Phillip: [00:07:07] I don't know. I've spent a lot of money on candles in the last few years. So recently you went bougie by visiting somewhere special. Where was it that you went?

Brian: [00:07:17] I went to Erewhon. It was fun. I [00:07:20] mean, it was bougie. It was great, though. I totally got a green drink that was like $10. But I returned my glass container and got $2 back in cash.

Phillip: [00:07:32] The most Brian Lange thing ever.

Brian: [00:07:35] Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, that makes way more sense than throwing that [00:07:40] incredibly hefty piece of glass into the trash or recycle.

Phillip: [00:07:44] It's true.

Brian: [00:07:46] Second of all, it made my drink $8 instead of $10.

Phillip: [00:07:49] {laughter} What was your take on Erewhon as somebody who had never been before but had heard tales of yore?

Brian: [00:07:57] It's kind of like how [00:08:00] Whole Foods felt when it first came out. When it first came out, Whole Foods was like, "Whoa, this is way more expensive and way more bougie and way better than any other grocery chain that I had seen." And I went to the one on Abbot Kinney. [00:08:20]

Phillip: [00:08:21] Erewhon on Abbott Kinney.

Brian: [00:08:22] Abbott Kinney. Yeah. So I went in there, things were... Whole Foods, I feel like, has kind of come down in price or other grocery stores have sort of caught up to Whole Foods, one of the two. I'm not really sure which. Stuff feels a little bit more expensive than your local Kroger or [00:08:40] Safeway or whatever, but this felt significantly more expensive than Whole Foods did to me. The product selection was also incredible. I felt like it was smaller amounts of more stuff, which I love, and [00:09:00] if they sold out on something, it wouldn't break my heart because there were so many other things to check out. If you shop there a lot, I feel like there'd be so much variety. It was a small store.

Phillip: [00:09:15] It's a small store. I've been to that one on Abbot Kinney before.

Brian: [00:09:18] Yeah, but it just felt [00:09:20] like I had a whole new world of really interesting food and beverages to try, which makes me really happy because I love food and bev. I absolutely love food and bev.

Phillip: [00:09:29] You're a self-professed fan of the green drink, Suja. It's sort of an in-joke on the Future Commerce Slack is Brian being [00:09:40] into something that nobody else can get on board with, and then you paid $10 for one, which surprises the heck out of me, by the way.

Brian: [00:09:45] I didn't spend $10 on Suja. I get Suja for like under $2 a pop at Costco.

Phillip: [00:09:53] But you bought a green drink for $8 after the recycling exchange.

Brian: [00:09:58] Yeah, after my  [00:10:00]labor to return the glass.

Phillip: [00:10:03] That's a big move for you.

Brian: [00:10:04] Yeah. Yeah, well, I wanted to try it. I mean, it wasn't... It was good. It was very good. It was very, very good. Would I ever buy it on a regular basis over Suja? Absolutely not.

Phillip: [00:10:15] No. Yeah. And not only would [00:10:20] not want to afford it, I'm curious if the days are somewhat numbered for other people who can afford it.

Brian: [00:10:29] Well, let me give my... So conventional wisdom. There's a lot of conventional wisdom.

Phillip: [00:10:34] There's a lot of conventional wisdom. Let's do some unconventional wisdom.

Brian: [00:10:37] Yeah, [00:10:38] unconventional wisdom says that [00:10:40] I think the people that can afford Erewhon are still going to Erewhon because it's food and bev. People don't want to come down on food and bev. They'll forgo other things. [00:10:50] But once you start having good coffee or good green drinks or good food [00:11:00]...

Phillip: [00:11:02] You make room for it in your budget.

Brian: [00:11:04] You make room. Correct. That's right.

Phillip: [00:11:07] But there's an interesting article, though. I feel like, I just popped this into the chat and I'll actually send it to you because I don't know if you've heard me go on about it. I linked it up in The Senses a couple of weeks ago [00:11:20] when everybody, like pre the first of the crypto sell-off panic. There's an HBR piece from 2009 that I often think back to which talks about how to market in a downturn. There's a really interesting way that they have categorized [00:11:40] spending into four buckets. So there are essentials. There are treats. There's something they call postponables.

Brian: [00:11:49] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:11:50] Which are the things that you can reasonably put off. And then there are expendables, which are things that basically are unjustifiable purchases. And it turns out, almost [00:12:00] everything except for expendables shifts around in an economic crisis. So people will reclassify things. Essentials and treats kind of move from one category to the next. Treats become postponables. Postponables become expendables. Essentials sort of expand into a [00:12:20] bunch of different things or things like fall off entirely as like they're not really essential. We thought they were essential. They're not. $100 candles might be one of those.

Phillip: [00:13:29] Turns [00:13:20] out there's a certain kind of a person, to your point, Brian. There's a consumer psychographic that they call the Live For Today type who never eliminate [00:13:40] expendables. In fact, they may even just spend more.

Brian: [00:13:44] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:13:45]  [00:13:45]Those people actually will expand their spending and lump essentials and treats and identify those as the same thing. And so to your point, Erewhon and such, maybe they don't [00:14:00] have a challenge in the downturn. But maybe it's the Whole Foods that's not so decidedly up market anymore that does challenge in the downturn. [00:14:08]

Brian: [00:14:08] Correct. That I think is dead on. Erewhon will probably be... It was so packed. It was so packed. No one was looking at the market [00:14:20] on their phone as they shop there either. They were there to enjoy themselves and get the things they wanted.

Phillip: [00:14:28] Yeah. It's a touristy thing almost.

Brian: [00:14:32] Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good way to put it. Take a culinary visit. [00:14:40] It's a whole thing. I think that there's sort of a novelty to it. But there's also sort of like if you shop there on the regular, you're not going to stop shopping there on the regular. Now, if you shop Whole Foods on the regular, you might switch to Costco because you can get a lot of the same [00:15:00] stuff at Costco for a much better price.

Phillip: [00:15:05] {laughter} "This episode of Future Commerce is brought to you by the Costco hot dog."

Brian: [00:15:10] The Costco hot dog. Oh, man, it's so funny. Actually, I know that the Costco hot dog is iconic and the price point's iconic, but I [00:15:20] feel like Costco would have done well... They've expanded their menu a few times into different things and kind of experimented with it. It just feels to me like the type of Costco shopper has sort of moved on from a hot dog in many ways. And yes, there are a lot of hot [00:15:40] dogs that get sold because it's a $1.50 and there's a nostalgia element to it. But I just feel like there's a next level to the Costco food court that could be had right now as those Whole Foods shoppers shift over to Costco. There could be some more healthy options.

Phillip: [00:15:58] I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. [00:16:00] So if you look at typical household spending, I feel like there's room for the daily everyday needs, the sort of decidedly niche purchases that you might make at a Whole Foods that aren't your every day. And then there are the bulk purchases that are special sort of by [00:16:20] weekly or monthly trips to the Price Club. I think there's still plenty of room for all of the above. I'm living for the day where Future Commerce has the wherewithal to do monthly pulse and spending reports with the panel and have a dashboard product to do all of that. Because I'd love to have a clearer line of data. [00:16:40] If you're out there and you want to help underwrite that at Future Commerce, it'd be great. Please hit us up.

Brian: [00:16:47] Phillip, you're manifesting that right now. That's what you're doing. You're speaking it. All you have to do is say something and it can totally exist these days.

Phillip: [00:16:57] It's totally true. Yeah, we [00:17:00] did our Visions report. We actually powered through a data product platform called Toluna, which I hadn't heard of before. But Grace Clark, who participated in Visions with us, swore by and had used it a couple of times over. The kind of insight [00:17:20] that we got from Toluna, and maybe it's just my own perspective because I'm not a researcher, I feel like we had more clarity of data and a better output product than I've seen from other data platforms. And they can do a lot of dashboarding and they can provide a consistent panel and a good voice of consumer panel. I'd love to put something like that [00:17:40] together with like CARLY and do like a consistent CARLY dashboard and a pulse. That would be so powerful. Again, if you're out there, and you're listening and you want to help power that, hit me up. Phillip@FutureCommerce.fm.

Brian: [00:17:58] It would be funny to see if the [00:18:00] GQ prediction came true or not, which was that CARLY with an E instead of a Y which was Can't Afford Real Life Ever.

Phillip: [00:18:09] Well, this is unfortunate, but there is a cohort of people who did very well during the pandemic who maybe had an exit during the pandemic and [00:18:20] got paid in the last 2 to 3 years who invested that money because that's the smart and the right thing to do. And then they realize now that they made their money and invested their money at the height of a bubble, the biggest bubble that we've ever had [00:18:40] in many markets. And so there are a lot of people, some of them might be me, where you're thinking to yourself like, "Oh, wow, yeah, no, I guess I'm going to just have to keep working here." It's the High Earner Not Rich Yet (HENRY) is becoming the Can't Afford [00:19:00] Real Life Yet (CARLY) real fast.

Brian: [00:19:01] HENRYs were upgrading but then they got downgraded.

Phillip: [00:19:06] Yeah. HENRYs got downgraded to CARLY real fast.

Brian: [00:19:08] Everyone was like, "Yeah HENRY is becoming not a thing because all the HENRYs are actually becoming really actually wealthy." But then they took all their money and put it into crypto [00:19:20] and into the market.

Phillip: [00:19:22] Rest in peace.

Brian: [00:19:22] And now everyone is just part of CARLY, except for Boomers who continue to just own the world.

Phillip: [00:19:31] I'm not going to out myself. I'm certainly a very lucky person. My crypto and stock picks have not [00:19:40] been so great over the last year. I was doing great in 2020 and 2021. I was like, "I'm a freaking genius."

Brian: [00:19:47] Erewhon was doing great. That was the reference to earlier.

Phillip: [00:19:52] Erewhon. We'll see. I don't know. There's a thing around retail tourism. I witnessed it here in Palm Beach because a lot of [00:20:00] folks do the Worth Avenue thing. They'll go into the boutiques, they'll go into the galleries, and they definitely share their retail exploits. I have to wonder if the inherent share-ability of something like Erewhon becomes socially taboo when your friends are [00:20:20] out of work. And if you're in the tech sector, this is the thing I want to muse on here. Going to Erewhon is this fun experience now because everyone wants to go see something that is this edifice to capitalism. It's this incredible... It's like an altar, it's a [00:20:40] shrine to how many brands can co-exist all at one time in one place, and how much people are willing to part with their hard-earned money for that experience. And it's inherently shareable. But that becomes sort of like an exercise in insincerity if you're sharing that among all your tech friends who all got laid [00:21:00] off in the last year. They're having a hard time. Are you going to go to Erewhon and share that you're buying a $20 juice, or are you going to do that specifically in jest to say, "Hahaha, I guess I should have had less avocado toast in the last year?"

Brian: [00:21:16] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get [00:21:20] the vibe that like maybe 10% of the shoppers at Erewhon were actually tech people.

Phillip: [00:21:28] In Santa Monica, I guess you're getting a pretty mixed crowd, but I just have to believe that there's at least my own... It's my window into the world. The people that I see that shop there are people in our field. [00:21:40] So they are people that I know. And the sharable experience of it is part of it. I saw it because I happened to be there in October last year and they had a pumpkin. I don't know if you've seen this where they grow the pumpkin inside of a [00:22:00] mold so that when they take the pumpkin out, it has a shape to it. Have you ever seen that before?

Brian: [00:22:06] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:22:06] So this was a skull-shaped pumpkin.

Brian: [00:22:09] Whoa.

Phillip: [00:22:10] It was $100.

Brian: [00:22:13] Well, that's art. It's not a pumpkin. A pumpkin is not [00:22:20] always a pumpkin, Phillip.

Phillip: [00:22:22] {laughter} But you understand what I'm saying? The $100 pumpkin is, you know, I'm going to show you a picture of it. For those just listening on the audio feed, you're not going to get anything out of this.

Brian: [00:22:34] Yeah, I mean, there is an element of that that is a novelty. [00:22:40]

Phillip: [00:22:40] I'm sorry. It's it wasn't a skull. I take it back. There's a sign on it that says The Organic Frankenstein pumpkin, $100 each. It's a Frankenstein pumpkin. But the point being here, Brian, is that the novelty of the $100 pumpkin I feel is a vestige [00:23:00] of the Roaring Twenties that we had for a year and a half. And I don't know that the world is going to be so... I don't know that we're going to love the sharing of the $100 pumpkin come a year from now.

Brian: [00:24:46] There's [00:24:40] a part of me that wants to just buck all of, again, the conventional stuff that I see going around on Twitter where it's like "Spending's decreasing," "The [00:25:00] way to survive this is to cut staff and focus on your moneymakers." "There's going to be a tightening of spending across B2B and across B2C."

Phillip: [00:25:14] Yup.

Brian: [00:25:14] I think it texted you a thread where there was all this advice around how things were going to go [00:25:20] and what to do to survive it. And part of me, the sort of rebellious part of me is like you know what? The business is that go all-in investing on the right things right now instead of holding back, they go all-in on the right thing, they're actually going to do better. [00:25:40] They're going to do even better. And that right thing might just be investing all of your money in Costco because it's so down right now that...

Phillip: [00:25:49] {laughter} You're down back for Costco. It's so funny.

Brian: [00:25:52] This is not investment advice in any way. But anyway, my point in [00:26:00] saying this is I feel like there's a lot of doom and gloom and yes, the interest rates are rising. And yes, consumer spending is inconclusive at the moment. How do you survive this next bit?

Phillip: [00:26:19] Well, let [00:26:20] me... Can we even zoom back? Just even a little further? I feel like there are two dynamics happening in our industry simultaneously. One is all of these eCommerce and eCommerce tech and SaaS enabled businesses were all [00:26:40] raising at ridiculous valuations of multiples last year and the year before.

Brian: [00:26:46] Yes.

Phillip: [00:26:47] And when you are raising a $40 million series C, you have to be on a certain trajectory. And if the window to raise again looks like it's closed [00:27:00] for the next 18 months to two years, the only thing you can do is really maximize your runway. This is in no way a reaction to something that people are seeing in the market. It is let's do the crisis comms and let's do the layoffs when everybody else is doing it so that we don't have to do [00:27:20] it a year from now.

Brian: [00:27:21] Right. So we can keep our cash as long as possible so we can get to the next round of funding.

Phillip: [00:27:26] And when it becomes more amenable for us to raise again, then we will do so. So really, [00:27:31] this is not a crisis of consumer spending. It's not an eCommerce crisis. This is a fundraising crisis and this [00:27:40] is the echo chamber doing what it is especially good at doing, which is creating a narrative around something that is inherently just a venture-backed industry problem. That's really what we're seeing. [00:27:53] And it happens to coincide with some pain in the consumer market, especially around travel, [00:28:00] especially around gasoline, especially around inflation of home goods, especially around supply chain constraints, especially around baby formula, especially around peanut butter recalls. Like there's a lot of things that, you know, you could say, oh, the consumer, the consumer, the consumer. Well, I don't know. The last time I checked, Target's eCommerce is still up 43 percent [00:28:20] in the last two years. So the consumers are spending and they're spending in eCommerce. It's can these tech businesses continue to raise money in this environment? And the answer is a resounding no. Unless you're an absolutely standout, stellar business that has growth beyond [00:28:40] what anybody could possibly imagine, you should tighten the belt now and do it when everyone else is doing it. So that's really what we're seeing.

Brian: [00:28:47] Right. Exactly. Exactly. If you're a funded startup that's recruiting tech, and obviously in our industry for commerce, then you have a very specific set of steps [00:29:00] that you need to take in order to make it to your next round. Unless, of course, you can just go get profitable now.

Phillip: [00:29:08] You're right. 100% right. Well, that's the... So this is the other thing, right? I put out this post on Twitter and lots of people were like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "I can't elaborate." But the common thread since the [00:29:20] beginning of the tech layoffs, which maybe started with Fast or maybe started back in March early on, the common thread throughout has been partnerships, sales, and channel personnel being laid off. That is where if you look at any of the layoffs that have happened in eCommerce [00:29:40] and tech and SaaS, they tend to be these areas where there's high headcount, not necessarily quantifiable bottom-line growth.

Brian: [00:29:53] Yup. Exactly.

Phillip: [00:29:53] And we happen to know a lot of people in sales partnerships and channel. So when I say don't share the Erewhon juice, I'm saying [00:30:00] that's because the people who are getting laid off are the people that follow us on Twitter.

Brian: [00:30:04] I'm curious how quickly those people are getting jobs. We've definitely, you know, obviously with Future Commerce careers, we've seen some incredible placements recently. Is this part of the great reshuffle? It's just there was the [00:30:20] voluntary side of it, and now there's the involuntary side of it where it wasn't the great resignation, it was the great reshuffle. It started as a voluntary thing and now it's becoming involuntary.

Phillip: [00:30:30] I think both can be true. I wrote some time ago, I think it was on an article that came out in VentureBeat back in, [00:30:40] I want to say like February or March. I wrote a piece that said that we're kind of suffering brain drain in eCommerce. ECommerce is far down the commodity cycle now. So the commodification is now we're definitely competing on price. The law of economics is that excess margin gets competed [00:31:00] away. So we're all in the like excess margin has been thoroughly competed away part of eCommerce. So everyone's fleeing to the things that have a lot of arbitrage. One of those things is like, okay, Fintech, right? Productivity suites, productivity tools, employee experience. And you see a lot in [00:31:20] the way of like maybe in the last year crypto or Web3. Brain drain has been happening in our industry for 2 to 3 years. This is not a new thing. The best developers are all going to solve things that haven't been solved yet. ECommerce is largely solved. So that's the thing that I feel like sales, partnership [00:31:40], and channel, those folks can go to Stripe. Stripe will hire them all day, every day. They've got hundreds of billions of dollars to work with.

Brian: [00:31:47] Yup. Still private.

Phillip: [00:31:48] And the big companies are going to be the ones that employ all of these people and they'll just continue to thrive outright.

Brian: [00:31:59] And just to bring [00:32:00] it all back, this is why I didn't share my photo of myself at Erewhon. The 100% why I didn't share that photo. More than 100%, 110% why I didn't share a photo of myself at Erewhon. Didn't even take one. And this concludes Brian Goes Bougie. This [00:32:20] whole segment, this whole set. We never closed it out.

Phillip: [00:32:23] We didn't close out the segment. That's okay.

Brian: [00:32:27] I feel like...

Phillip: [00:32:28] You didn't share the picture because you didn't take the picture.

Brian: [00:32:32] I didn't even take the picture. I was too afraid to share it. The fact that I bought a $10 green drink. I didn't even want it on my phone.

Phillip: [00:32:41] If [00:32:40] you have a suggestion for our next Brian Goes Bougie we'll do one once a month. That's my new promise.

Brian: [00:32:47] Yes. Oh, man.

Phillip: [00:32:48] I have a lot of ideas, including making Brian adopt a skincare routine, but that's a whole other thing. If you have some ideas, drop them in an email at Hello@FutureCommerce.fm. Shorter [00:33:00] episode today. Hey, we've got some really amazing stuff coming. We have 16 plus episodes of a podcast called Visions that will find its way onto this main feed here. But if you want to just listen to the Visions content, it's coming your way. Look for it wherever you listen to podcasts. But it's called Visions and it's by Future Commerce. It's a podcast about, well, all [00:33:20] the things that I think are commerce-impacting, but not necessarily commerce-centric. It's psychology, it's spirituality, it's ecology, it is culture. And Visions is about the bigger ideas in our world that shape the future that we all have to live in. And it's very intensely related and powered by our report. [00:33:40] So go catch the Visions.report. Brian, any last thoughts? Anything else here to close this out?

Brian: [00:33:49] That was really fun and I can't wait to podcast with you again soon.

Phillip: [00:33:54] Thanks for listening. Commerce is a catalyst for change. In who's world? In [00:34:00] your world. But maybe we can all use it one day to change the world. Thank you for listening to Future Commerce.

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