[STEP BY STEP] Going Global With Data-Backed Confidence

Brian: [00:00:40] Welcome to Step by Step, the podcast by Future Commerce presented by Triple Whale.

Phillip: [00:00:45] I love the energy, Brian. This season, we are exploring how to optimize your Meta ad campaigns for maximum impact. And if you are running a high growth or a high GMV brand and you're trying to amplify your marketing strategy, that's what this season of Step by Step is here to do.

Brian: [00:01:01] Exactly. And this season, brought to you by Triple Whale, will dive deep into the tools, insights, and strategies that allow brands to leverage Meta's platform more effectively.

Phillip: [00:01:11] That's right.

Brian: [00:01:11] Over three episodes, we'll break down the essentials from enhancing customer data to refining ad spend, all to help grow the bottom line.

Phillip: [00:01:20] But this is the second episode of three. So if you missed our first episode in this shorter season of Step by Step, I suggest that you go back and listen right from the very beginning. And if you are wondering, is this the right podcast series for me? I think anybody right now is probably thinking, "In my paid acquisition strategy, how do I convert data insights inside of a dashboarding tool into actual incremental or actionable growth through Meta?" That might be a good signal that this is the podcast for you. You're in the right place. That's right.

Brian: [00:01:53] And in this Episode 2 of 3, we'll be covering the topic, how utilizing the right tools increase data accuracy for Zox by 90%. And we've got a lot of really interesting points to cover. Phillip, what are the few key takeaways people can expect from this episode?

Phillip: [00:02:10] Yeah. You had a great conversation with Brandon Kuipers, and I think one of the things that I took away was, well, yeah, a lot of the tools that we use have to think about and abide by privacy regulations and data privacy regulations in different markets. So growing and scaling your business, like, into Europe requires thinking about things like GDPR, and thinking about how your ad spend and targeting growth in those regions are really subject to those regulatory oversights. And you need the right tools to be able to stay within compliance, but you also need those tools to send the right data into Meta so that you're helping to acquire and convert traffic profitably. And that is a thing that I think Zox really has figured out in a way that Brandon really breaks down here in this episode.

Brian: [00:03:02] Yeah. It was so fun talking with him too. Zox is such a cool company, and Brandon's got a great story. So I think it's gonna be a really fun listen. Without further ado, let's jump into this episode with Brandon Kuipers from Zox. Hello, [00:03:21] and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast at the intersection of culture and commerce. I'm Brian, and we are here in Step by Step with Triple Whale. This is a super special season, and I've got an incredible guest ahead, Brandon Cooper actually, oh, pause. [00:03:39]

Brandon: [00:03:39]  [00:03:39]I was gonna say that. Forgot to say my last name. [00:03:41]

Brian: [00:03:41]  [00:03:41]I I should've asked up front. [00:03:42]

Brandon: [00:03:43]  [00:03:43]But but is Brandon Kuipers. [00:03:44]

Brian: [00:03:44]  [00:03:44]Kuipers. Kuipers. Yeah. I actually knew that. Sarah said that. I'm just gonna start over again. Starting over, Sarah. Alright. And, uh, founder, cofounder? [00:03:54]

Brandon: [00:03:55]  [00:03:55]Cofounder and CMO. Yeah. [00:03:56]

Brian: [00:03:56]  [00:03:56]Perfect. Alright. Hello, [00:04:00] and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast at the intersection of culture and commerce. I'm Brian, and we are in the middle of Step by Step. This is a super special season with Triple Whale, and I have a very special guest with us here today. I have Brandon Kuipers, the Co-Founder and CMO at Zox. Welcome, Brandon.

Brandon: [00:04:22] Hey, Brian. How's it going? I'm super excited to be here. This is awesome to get the invite and excited to talk more about what's been working for us over here.

Brian: [00:04:30] Yeah. Yeah. I'm super excited to dive into the details as well. And I'd love if you could just give us a little bit of an intro on Zox. Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, how'd you get in the game? What's the play?

Brandon: [00:04:45] I've been in the game for a long time now. Just hit 13 years since we first started giving out our bracelets to people. So I started this business, Zox, in 2011 with my two brothers. I was coming out of high school. I actually have my vote bracelet on today because I just went and voted early this morning and got some videos for some UGC stuff at the polls. But we make collectible elastic bracelets. So each bracelet is individually numbered, collectible, has a little reminder message on the inside. This one, when you flip it inside out, it says, "I voted," which is great. People are getting super excited for this one. Obviously, election season is coming up in the next few weeks. And, honestly, we just started with a family arts and crafts night when I was in high school. My older brother was nine years older than me. My younger brother is four years younger than me, and Jason, my older brother, came out to visit me and my family or our family, I guess. I was still living at home with my parents in high school, and he had an idea to make some bracelets that matched some of our crazier colored shoe collection. And him and my younger brother, Jordan, and I went out to this fabric store and got this elastic fabric. We went to another store and got some paint markers and sat around my parents' kitchen table that night just doodling on these bracelets and having my mom stitch them together for us. And when I went to high school that next week, kids were complimenting me on them and asking where I got them from, and I thought, "Hey. Maybe this is a cool idea." I went home and told my family. My dad was like, "You guys should turn this into a business and call it Zoxstrap because they're made from the same material as Jock straps," and it rhymed. And so we kinda wrote it off. We didn't like the name at first, but after a while, we had it grow on us. And, honestly, it was the perfect name for our business, and it's been a ton of fun growing it with my two brothers. We started doing bracelets. We now sell Apple Watch Bands, Samsung Watch Bands. We have hoodies with interchangeable strings, a really cool personalized bag and backpack line that we have as well, but our main bread and butter is our bracelets and smartwatch bands at this point.

Brian: [00:06:43] That's so cool, man. I love a family business. My kids are super crafty. Kind of sounds like you and your family, and they love to knit, and they love to create things, make stuff. So it's near and dear to my heart. And you said you have two brothers. Actually, I have four boys of my own. So I'm very, this resonates with me hard, actually. And so I love that story. So you've grown this into a pretty substantial business and a really, really cool brand. Everyone should go check it out, zox.co. The artwork is really interesting, fun stuff, and it sounds like it's all original from you guys. Is that true?

Brandon: [00:07:33] We have an in house art team as well, and then we partner with artists around the world for it. And so we just had a recent collaboration with one of our oldest artists, the first artist we ever worked with, we brought him back. His name is Slaw. Did a collab with him again recently. We have another one coming up next week with another artist who goes by the name of Lumi. Tons of different artist collaborations, a lot of in house artwork being made, and then just small artisans and artists around the world who are constantly creating designs for us that we're adding to our bracelets.

Brian: [00:08:01] That's so cool. I love that.

Brandon: [00:08:03] Yeah.

Brian: [00:08:03] Now I think, thinking through some of the challenges of building an online business, a lot of your sales are gonna come from ads on social. It's very, like, a social native content here. And so I'm assuming you do quite a bit of advertising on Meta. Is that true?

Brandon: [00:08:26] Yeah. So when we first started, we never intended to be an ecommerce company. We kind of wanted to get into brick and mortar retail. And at the time, there was a few other bracelet companies that kinda got the jump on us. And when I was talking to those stores, they were telling us, "Hey. These aren't selling well for us at all." Those companies eventually ended up being successful years later after being in stores for several years. And at that point, we kinda realized we had to pivot and just go full in on ecommerce. And since then, we've just been dedicated to figuring out what actually works, how to scale our business, how to hit the key metrics that we're looking for. And, obviously, a lot of things have changed since 2011 from being able to buy a Facebook like for 25¢. And every time I post, you're gonna see it and getting a 100 likes on post to now it's a completely social algorithm where the more you're sharing, the more you're getting comments, and the more social your posts are, the better they're gonna do. And focused on constantly updating and growing things has been very stressful.

Brian: [00:09:29] Yeah. This is not easy.

Brandon: [00:09:32] Always new. Yeah. Things are always new. And it's like, even when you feel like you have things figured out really well, you have a huge change like iOS 14.5 and kinda get thrown for a loop again. And so it's always about innovating and finding new ways of tracking and growing for us. And so as a whole, we're always looking for the next thing that we can do to kind of put our best foot forward and find new ways to grow in the markets that we're in.

Brian: [00:09:59] Nice. Yeah. And growth is the name of the game. And like you said, it's not, you know, 25¢ ads anymore. Things are hard and and actually, as you expand markets, business gets more complicated and there starts to be more rules and more sources of data and lots of different ways that you have to consolidate and think through how to go get after that next market or better address existing markets.

Brandon: [00:10:30] Yeah.

Brian: [00:10:30] As you've kind of grown, I would imagine data reporting started to get trickier.

Brandon: [00:10:36] Yeah. Data reporting has always been tricky for us, especially just as a very high volume, low AOV business. I think when we first onboarded at Triple Whale, I was one of the first 20 customers on there, and our data was pretty regularly crashing their system. And AJ and Max would joke around with me about having to constantly upgrade their servers just to handle our lower level of order volume. And it's not like, I don't think it was that crazy just because it wasn't as big as all these other businesses in terms of revenue. But in terms of volume, it was just substantial of that. And trying to manage that many orders coming through ends up being a little bit tricky, especially in the data side of things.

Brian: [00:11:15] Yeah. And I imagine having pretty fragmented data and so many different places that you're selling, whether it's on Meta or through your site or through marketplaces or whatever. That can really impact your marketing decisions.

Brandon: [00:11:32] Yeah

Brian: [00:11:37] So well, once you got Triple Whale, how did you start to shift your thinking around which ads you would put into which markets?

Brandon: [00:11:45] Yeah. I think I guess the long story for that is so I'm completely self taught. I graduated high school and never went to college at all. And for me stepping into the CMO role, I really had to figure out what it actually meant to grow a business and how to grow it profitably. We have zeo funding, zero debt. We have, like, a line of credit that's completely untapped. And so for us, a dollar in is a dollar in, and a dollar out is a dollar out of our own pockets. And so for us, we've always been very focused on growing profitably and sustainably. And as a whole for that, that really changes the dynamic up. It's very easy, I think, to grow when you have a bank account with $5,000,000 of somebody else's money in it, and you have the ability to grow however you want. For us, we've always been very focused on that data and making data driven decisions for us. And so I remember about 2018 when things actually really started to click for us was when I started to kind of factor out customer churn rates. And outside of retention of subscription customers, for each customer you get in the door, you have x percent that are repeat purchasers. Right? And x percent of those are gonna be a two or three or five x repeat purchaser, but over time, you're gonna kind of lose those customers. And I kinda came up with an algorithm inside of our business of, okay. Here's how fast we churn customers. If we get a 1,000 new customers in this month, how many new customers are gonna come back in three months from now and four months from now from that same customer cohort? And this was before there were really any cohort reporting tools available on the market like what Triple Whale has, and figuring that out really gave us this algorithm, I guess, for growth of, okay. Well, I could put $5,000 a day in, but after 60 days of putting $5,000 a day in, my business is gonna stop growing. And we're gonna have that churn where those customers from six months ago are churning to the same rate that I'm acquiring new customers. Right? And for us, that really changed how we perceived things and how we started to grow our business. And then leading into, like, iOS 14.5, before that, we had always tracked, okay, we have one day click, we have seven day click, we have 28 day click. So I'm tracking these metrics from 1728. This is pre Triple Whale, so I'm doing a Google spreadsheet each week to see what I can report on and see how healthy our business is.

Brian: [00:14:08] It's a time intensive process.

Brandon: [00:14:10] Yeah. It's not enjoyable, but we're a better place now, I think. And so that at least makes it nice. And then in a post iOS 14 world there was no 28 day click. Meta completely depreciated the 28 day click, so there was no even ability to bring that and/or even find that data anymore. A friend of mine who I really respect a lot recommended Triple Whale and ended up being one of the first customers on the platform and loved it. So it was my idea to have AJ and Max build up the new customer ROAS metric in there because that was kind of my own north star at the time.

Brian: [00:14:47] Nice.

Brandon: [00:14:48] I built out my own custom dashboard where I was custom tagging every single new customer as a first time customer. And then I had this dashboard built out taking in my order or my ad spend from Meta and then comparing that. So, say, I had $5,000 in new customer spend. I spent $2500. Okay. Now I have a 2 ROAS. That's my new customer ROAS. And so up in it was about two months, I think, of that before I got into Triple Whale. And as soon as I was on Triple Whale, I was like, "Hey. Could you please get this built out for me?" when all Triple Whale was just a reporting dashboard. Right?

Brian: [00:15:20] Yeah.

Brandon: [00:15:20] And just even having that made a huge difference for me, and I really focused on new customer ROAS as like my true north star for a while. But even now, it's at the point where there is so much data privacy that it gets really difficult to even know where those new customers are coming from. Obviously, you have the amazing tools inside of there that are the Creative Cockpit and the Triple Pixel. All these things give you some of that insight of the data, but it's really difficult to track organic views, especially if somebody's just seeing your ad and Googling you. So post purchase surveys are important. But then for ad scale, like, in the EU, if you're running ads in the EU, and I can go really into depth about this because I started in the EU in 2018 and completely blew up our business for two months and almost then ran into the ground after that with some mistakes I made. {laughter}

Brian: [00:16:19] {laughter}

Brandon: [00:16:19] But data reporting is so crucial for everything you're doing these days, especially with an algorithm. If you're not feeding in the data to the system, how is the system ever gonna optimize for the results that you want? You know?

Brian: [00:17:34] GDPR in regions like the EU and the UK, it gets really difficult to be able to have visibility into some of that.

Brandon: [00:17:43] It does.

Brian: [00:17:43] Recently, you launched with Sonar. And so tell us a little bit about that process and the results of using Sonar with Meta.

Brandon: [00:17:56] Yeah. So I think the best way to kinda set that up is kind of explaining where we've been with international sales and kind of how Sonar has brought us back to where we wanted to be. And so it was in 2017, end of 2017, I launched a 3PL overseas to start shipping our products internationally outside of America. I found these really cheap shipping rates internationally when this was not really well known for us. As a small business, we couldn't find any cheap rates. It would cost us $10 to ship a little wristband to the United Kingdom, and nobody wants to pay $10 shipping and a $10 bracelet. So was able to unlock some of these cheaper shipping rates and just duplicated my ad account, duplicated our website to a new website. And within three days of launching internationally to mostly, I think I did mostly worldwide, but I was mostly going for the United Kingdom and then the European Union, we were doing more sales on our international website than on our domestic website after three days.

Brian: [00:18:55] Whoa.

Brandon: [00:18:55] And this is to a market we've never advertised to at all. I was offering super cheap shipping, but I was completely unaware of the de minimis rules and the EU, which is now it's everything is de minimis. You have to register for sales tax if you're selling out there. But at the time, if it was under, I think, like €25 or £25, something like that, the customers won't have any import tax. But over that, you had customers getting a £8 fee, which is the equivalent of $10 back then.

Brian: [00:19:27] Right.

Brandon: [00:19:27] Just to get busted by an extra 20% duties fee. And so the warehouse that I set up as a 3PL was just a mess. They had lost more of our boxes with our product and weren't shipping on time. And so we had to issue a lot of refunds and kind of get back together and restart things and actually do things the right way. But overall, even after we got things back together, it took us about nine or 10 months to really relaunch fully again. But after that, the EU was not as lucrative as it had been for a little bit, but it was still doing really well for us. And it got to the point where in 2021, we were just at capacity for our warehouse in Texas, and we had to figure out a way to continue to scale. And over COVID, our shipping times to United Kingdom from, we had a warehouse in Los Angeles to begin with and moved out to Texas, but our shipping times went from four to eight days to get it to the UK from America to about nine to fifteen.

Brian: [00:20:31] Sheesh.

Brandon: [00:20:32] So just because of the COVID shipping regulations, we're like, "Hey. We can't compete out here anymore. These customers are getting upset it's taking too long." And we built out a full 3PL, and by the time we actually had a really good proper 3PL set up out there, we had our business registered, did all our VAT stuff, get everything ready to go, and it was a complete dud. And so I start launching my ads. I'm seeing 0.05 ROAS, 0.1 ROAS at the best, and I'm like, "Man, what is going on out here? This was not like this a year ago before we fully tried to launch and scale out here." And as I dug into the data, I was like, "Wait. My data in Shopify is completely different than what Facebook is telling me it is." And so I actually run my numbers with first party data on Shopify and saw that I was actually at a 1.4 ROAS. And I was like, "Oh, wait. This is completely different than what Facebook is telling me it is. I can actually scale this a little bit." And you start to scale your ads a bit, but you're scaling at what Meta thinks is a 0.05 or a 0.1. And over time, the results just get worse and worse and worse because Meta is not actually optimizing for the results that are working. And it got to the point where our EU sales had just dropped so low that we couldn't afford to keep our 3PL open. It made no sense from a business perspective to keep it open. The shipping times went down in the US and really just impacted our business. Our international sales used to be around 33% of our business, and it would drop down to 12% when we closed the 3PL down. And it's just the data. You can't advertise without the algorithm working right. And so for us, when I saw the Sonar stuff, I was like, "Yeah. I'll plug this in. Whatever." It took me, I think, two or three minutes to set it up, and I was like, "Okay. We'll see what this does." It was super easy. I just go into Triple Whale. I get the notice about it. I was like, "Oh, this seems cool. I don't know how much more data they're gonna get me. I don't know how big of a deal this is gonna be for me if it'll even work." So I set it up. Takes me a few minutes to set up. I don't think anything of it until the next day where I check my ads, and I was like, "Wait. Why is the UK and EU doing so well?" I just had my budget, like, a $100 a day for those regions. I didn't wanna spend a bunch out there because my Facebook reported results were always very low. To Facebook's defense, like, it is not their fault. It is just privacy laws and regulations for them.

Brian: [00:23:00] Right.

Brandon: [00:23:01] On Facebook's end, it is just showing nothing. It's just abysmal. And then in Shopify, I'll be like, 3 ROAS one day, 0.2 ROAS the next day, 2.5 one day, 0.3 the next day, and it's just all over the place. And I get into Facebook the day after I turn it on. I was like, "Wait. Why is it up to, like, 0.8 today? This is kinda strange. That's a little weird. Whatever. I'll check it again tomorrow." So I check it again the next day, and we're at, like, a 1.2. And I was like, "Something's going on here. What broke out of my site that Facebook is tracking this?" And I started to realize, no, i just set up Sonar. And at that point, I was like, "Max, AJ, check this out." So I've been keeping in touch with Max and AJ since being one of the first customers on board. I was like, "Guys, this could be the best product you guys have ever released." My business in the EU and the UK was huge. Now it's nothing. And I think Sonar was actually the missing link that we've been missing to get things back. And so I sent them an email, and they were like, "Hey. Can we do a case study on you?" I've been passing along any advice that I have on it, and it's been such an insanely good product for us. And it's really just changed the game for us as marketers overseas and really reopening these markets that we thought had closed down. If you would ask me a year ago, like, "Hey. Should I open up a 3PL or should I expand it into the EU or UK?" I'd be like, "It's not worth your time."

Brian: [00:24:26] Yep.

Brandon: [00:24:26] "It's not worth the effort. You're gonna have no data insights."

Brian: [00:24:28] Yep.

Brandon: [00:24:29] And now it's like, if you ask me, I would say, "Don't tell anybody this, but get on Triple Whale Sonar. And don't spend too much money because you're gonna bring my CPMs back up."

Brian: [00:24:41] Totally. What did you find with the case study in terms of how much it increased your data accuracy once you had it implemented?

Brandon: [00:24:50] It was over, like, 95%, I think. It was pretty well matched up. Obviously, you can't be a 100% something with that, but it went from tracking almost none of our conversions to tracking just about every conversion. It was night and day difference compared to what it used to be.

Brian: [00:25:07] That's so cool. And and how's this gonna impact your decisions around where to go to market now and how to go to market? What's the move in terms of changing your marketing spend strategy?

Brandon: [00:25:21] Yeah. For me, it's going back to what had worked in the past for us where, obviously, in the US, you kind of have ebbs and flows in the market at different times of the year. And so we've always kind of seen it where we might have a nice jump in April, May, June in the US, and then from July, August, September, our ads are just underperforming in the US. But usually around those times is when I'll turn on those overseas ads. And historically before Sonar, and then also after Sonar, I've actually seen really good results scaling budgets outside the US at times where the US is not really performing as well. These other countries actually seem to do really well. And so for me, it's just a way to shift our business spend over to kind of hit similar revenue numbers, but overseas and just working it through that way versus just turning things down and just taking less sales.

Brian: [00:26:16] Totally. Yep. It makes so much sense. You'll be able to smooth out your business and finds those unique seasons where, like you said, off seasons or other times in the US that you may not have the same level of sales. And I'm sure at some point, there's probably an incremental conversation to be had just in general.

Brandon: [00:26:38] Yeah.

Brian: [00:26:38] Go full force. What does this mean in terms of will you be able to reapproach even starting to re warehouse? Have you thought through that?

Brandon: [00:26:50] We haven't gone too deep into that just because over the last few years, we've shifted from a growth at profits expense company to a profit at growth expense company. In the market, valuations are down across the board. At the end of the day, nobody's gonna come in and buy your company out if you're failing unless they're just buying it for nothing. So for us as business owners and employers, we wanna protect our investments. We wanna just focus on profit first right now. And if in the future we're able to scale heavily overseas again to the same level as what we're doing in the US in the past, we'd consider it. But now that COVID is over and the shipping rates are where they should be, the rates, the arbitrage on rates in EU in a 3PL in the EU is not really as great as you would think it is. For our packages, we might be saving a dollar a package shipping from the EU. But for us, it's like, is that worth all that extra hassle, the tax registrations? The amount of effort and investment it costs to get your business fully up and running in the EU is a nightmare. We had to file new businesses. We had to set up tax attorneys. We were paying people quarterly for all these things during all this remittance. And now we just have the remittance issues and things like that, which we deal with, but it's a lot less costly for us than actually having an EU business entity right now.

Brian: [00:28:13] Love that. So what this has really enabled you to do is have an international business without having to go actually build a real business in each country or region that you wanna be in. That's insane. It's amazing. What about your highest performing ad? Tell tell me about that. What did you do that works so well? And maybe tell me about the EU and then tell me about the US, maybe compare and contrast a little bit.

Brandon: [00:28:42] Yeah. I mean, I've had a lot of ads in the US that have not worked at all, and then I've just put them up in the EU and they've worked flawlessly. Just my best performers out there have just bombed in the in the US. And so that's also kind of the nice thing is if you're spending time making content, and even if it flops in the US, you toss into the other countries, and it might perform really well there. And it wasn't just a wasted effort or time, and you get a nice return on investment from that asset that you created anyway. For some of the best performers, they ended up being the same more recently. It was just like a video of me doing my own UGC stuff with some of the watch bands. I got an Apple Watch Ultra last year for our watch band release and did a video with that, and that's been one of our best performers for why it works so well over there as well as the US, I would guess. If anybody knows soccer who's watching this, anytime I'm in the EU, people mistake me for Harry Kane. But, actually, even my sister is like, "Do you know who this is?" And I was like, "I only knew who this is because people have told me this." I went to Europe last summer, and I was just walking down the street in Nice, and I just heard somebody yell, "Harry." And somebody shouted again, and I was like, "Is that person shouting that me?" And he was like, "Harry Kane." I was like, "No. No. No. No. That's not me."

Brian: [00:29:59] Embrace that one. You gotta. {laughter}

Brandon: [00:30:00] If I'm in the UK or Germany, I might get a little bit more of attention out there just because of him, but that's kind of my theory for why my EU ads for me unboxing with an American speaking English might work better than some other performing assets out there. You know?

Brian: [00:30:19] Nice. Last question for you. I think just generally, this enhanced visibility you have as a result of being on these larger platforms using a tool like Sonar, as you look at the next year or two, how important is it for your business, one? And two, what are you gonna do to continue to improve on that data visibility and use data in new ways as a result of that improved visibility?

Brandon: [00:30:52] Yeah. Honestly, it's probably one of the biggest unlocks. It is the single biggest unlock for outside markets, outside the US. In the US, our data visibility was still pretty strong. Triple Whale improved at a tiny bit, but not at the same level. Our data visibility in the US was already maybe 80%. They got it back up to 90%. But to go from 5% to 95% is obviously a much bigger jump and makes a much larger impact that you can see and feel when you're advertising. And so absolutely definitively one of the biggest decisions or one of the biggest implementations we've made this year. And then I think moving forward into next year, it's just continuing to grow those markets again and kind of building up awareness in these countries and considering launching some localized languages and spinning off our bracelets into Spanish or German or doing some limited edition German pieces for the German market. I have Dutch ancestry, so doing some Dutch ones would be cool as well.

Brian: [00:31:55] You nailed it. How is it gonna change your strategy for your go to market in places where it increases visibility? And you totally answered that for me, which is I think it's crazy having this level of visibility is actually going to impact your product strategy. You're talking about sort of business wide changes, full on product pivots to be able to better address markets because you have better visibility into how those customers are engaging with the product itself. And now you're totally unlocked to go after those new markets and those new customers.

Brandon: [00:32:33] Yeah.

Brian: [00:32:33] I love this. This is such a great story. Brandon, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Brandon: [00:32:37] Of course.

Brian: [00:32:38] It's been great chatting with you and learning more about how you can expand your business through improved data visibility through Sonar and Meta. I love it. Thank you so much for joining us.

Brandon: [00:32:50] Thanks for having me, Brian.

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