Sur La Table’s Head of Brand Marketing on AI, Strong Leadership, and Secondhand Influence

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[00:01:28] Phillip: See you

[00:01:29] Phillip: Around the next corner with a futurecommerce plus membership. Join today at futurecommerce.com/plus. Hello, and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast at the intersection of culture and commerce. I'm Philip.

[00:01:49] Brian: And I'm Brian. And today, we have a very special guest with us. Uh, I'd like to introduce Kristin Flour Perre, the head of brand marketing at Sur La Table and also the founder and CEO of Saucy. Welcome to the show, Kristin.

[00:02:03] Kristin: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:05] Brian: Yeah. We're super excited. Uh, I got to meet you at the Seattle Ecommerce Summit, uh, a couple months ago now, I think. And I was just blown away by the conversation we had off stage because, uh, you you've got such a a wealth of experience in, you know, uh, just an incredible, uh, career, 3 decades across various sectors, uh, startups, agencies, Fortune 100 companies, all of the above. Super excited about it. So I I would love to just, you know, hear a little bit more about you and, uh, what some of the lessons that you've had over the years. Uh, just just give us the quick quick background.

[00:02:46] Kristin: I mean, I think the quick background and really what most people learn about me very quickly is that I'm fascinated by people. I love people. I love getting to know people. And at the end of the day, to be a really good marketer, you have to want to understand people and why we do what we do. And I probably should have been a cultural anthropologist because that would have, you know, been, been probably my kindred spirit and what I look at. Because at the end of the day, I think there's this big misnomer in marketing that we really have the ability when we talk about it all the time to change behavior. But we have to think about it as in terms of influence and really putting up that right thing at that right time. And so what we fundamentally are are connectors and we have to look for those signals and the noise to align with that. And so for us to be excellent marketers, we have to understand people and we need to spend a lot of time getting to know them and why they're doing what they're doing. And the other advice that I would give to anybody that goes into this industry. You should be really interested in history and you know what's happening in terms of you know the world and so we always talk about it in any brief that we're writing or anything that we're preparing for an initiative is that we look in, first of all, close in, and then at each time we stair step out at different intervals to really make sure that we understand things that are the farthest away and close in. And then where's that pacing of of how it's really gonna come into our universe and when we need to deal with it?

[00:04:18] Phillip: I speaking my language, um, this is this is a shift that we're experiencing in the digital commerce industry where the industry has been, you know, for lack of a better word, sort of gatekept by technologists. Right? Technology has been a bottleneck for doing this humanity centric work, understanding how humans behave, how they think, how they belong, what we buy is a and, uh, a reflection of who we are, or what we buy is who we become. Uh, but a lot of that has been get kept by technology, and technology is difficult. Like, I spent 20 years building those digital interfaces, but maybe the path between the builder and and, uh, or the the people who develop the concepts and the actual customer interaction is is getting shorter and shorter these days, especially with all this AI stuff. Um, do you think that that's flipping? Do you think that we have we need more education around things like humanities to to do a better job? Absolutely.

[00:05:12] Kristin: I mean Yeah. I remember, and I get emails all day long from people that are pitching me their technology, and they're talking about what AI can do. And, notice this idea of like put it out there and let the algorithm test and algorithm is gonna tell you what's gonna perform and sure, but that's kind of this idea that like I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall and I wanna see what sticks And I'm a firm believer in testing, so I I don't want you to get the impression that I'm not. But if everything is just this concept of sticking spaghetti at the wall, why aren't we looking for, like, what we always talk about? Like, what's that big insight, that moment? And I'm sorry, that holy shit, you know, number that you look at that the jaw drops in the room when you're talking about that idea. So doing that foundational work to understand it, to kind of shortcut where you need to be. And AI is a fabulous tool to do a whole bunch of research really quickly that, you know, used to take a lot of man hours. So it can get you ahead, but it's still the responsibility of humans to think about it and understand the why behind all of those things to get smarter about what it is that we're doing.

[00:06:17] Kristin: If we're just gonna let the machines to do it, I I think at the end of the day, they are not as involved as we are as humans and they can't think the way that human beings do. And so in some ways, it's kind of that concept of garbage in garbage out and you're not going to get to that place of optimization where you want more quickly. In my viewpoint, in everything that we need to do, there's always that complement of that technology and that human and how these things need to come together and really understanding what technology is really good at and what humans are really good at and marrying those 2. We cannot replace humans with technology and we cannot replace, uh, technology with humans. And so if we understand that symbiotic relationship and embrace it and figure out what is our job as humans and what are we uniquely suited to do, we're gonna be better off in in where the world has had to be.

[00:07:04] Phillip: Yeah. I I would also say before Brian goes and drops a Robert Wiener quote on us, which I believe he's going to do, I I think that what you're saying I is we're also at sort of an epoch where people like me who were technologists can now have a greater understanding through these tools of the humanities and, like, where, like, the the the the underpinnings in sociology, philosophy, psychology of the way that people buy and belong, but it also provides people who that is their class or formal training or their their distinct mode of thinking. It gives them the tools to make the technology too. So we we have this radical new capability where any person can fulfill a new role, um, or be educated about the one that they lack the formal education around. I think that that's such a powerful moment that's never existed really before because you have to decide I I how many people do we know, Brian, who have gone to get their their masters, um, you know, as, uh, in in, you know, as part of a a work career development, uh, arc in their in their business. Right? I mean, do I it's it's part it's a necessary part of career development, but I feel like that's the timeline and the path to that is shorter now.

[00:08:26] Brian: Kristen, I'm curious to get your perspective here. As we're looking at this sort of, like, role shift in many ways from, like, how like The Who and like the type of person that is needs to be able to run these, you know, the these campaigns and be able to connect through technology with people. Um, what are the types of things that that c level, uh, executives should be looking for when they go to hire, uh, the the the next crop of sellers or of whatever this role is, uh, you know, the go to market people? Um, and I and I ask this only because I I feel like there's been a deemphasis on the marketer recently.

[00:09:11] Kristin: I love this question for a lot of reasons because what you're talking about is in terms of the trends and where we see and what's valued and you know from all my years at an agency You know, we had to monitor that very very closely because like what did you invest in? What were clients going to buy? What did you build up? What's the pursuit taking down? I think for you know and again, I've been doing this for a long time. It was really that investment in that data, that technology, that analytics team, that, you know and and it was like we had to build those bigger and we wanted to have data that sat at the core of everything and making sure that, you know, those mathematicians, you know, had a place in with the organization. And now when we think about that complement of AI and what AI can do, um, a lot of those roles are being incredibly devalued, right, and you don't need as many of them. And I think this is, you know, one of the things that Microsoft got really right in terms of the concept of what they call their AI, this concept of copiloting. So who is that copilot and what does that copilot need to do and what are those skills? And I think we're gonna go back to at the root of what you need to do to be, you know, really good in business at this at this juncture going forward is problem solving. So have the ability to solve problems, all different types and scales of problems, and look and think about it in a way that hasn't been there before. And so that classic, more of that humanities type, um, degree that's really allowing you those critical thinking skills.

[00:10:33] Kristin: And I think the other thing is also somebody, as I said, that is keenly interested in humanity. And so is going and looking and studying what has happened in the past. Because even though technology is changing the world and how we work, if we look back from the beginning of time, the the transformations are there and they're mapping how these things happen and move through societies. And so those are things that we need to understand. And I think the other thing really going back and looking at that which is, you know, I don't think is emphasized enough in school is really the acumen around what we're gonna talk about, and I think a lot of people confuse these three things, is the concept of leadership development, business acumen, and then talent. Like, what is your core talent? And those three things are very, very different, and yet a leader needs to have all of those. And so whether or not they're getting that in school, what is the organization's responsibility to invest in the individual to grow them over time? Because again, the problems are going to get different, right? We know that and they're gonna come faster. And so you need a leader that actually has the ability to manage an agile workforce and not be frightened by that and then be able to have those critical thinking abilities to understand and see those trends of where they are and then the leadership ability to manage transformation. Because transformation is one of the hardest things for us to do as human beings. And if you don't have those leadership abilities to manage a chain a team through transformation, you're not gonna be successful.

[00:12:04] Brian: Well, and and I think that gets back to something we're talking about in the preshow. Change is happening faster and faster. It's it's week to week. It's day to day. In an environment like this, things are happening at the speed of light. So actually, change management and adaptability are actually the things that we're looking for as skill set. This also affects our strategy overall because I think because change is happening so quickly, planning for the future gets a lot harder. Being able to plan for the future and have a long term viewpoint on things is a different skill than managing the moments and the the fast change that's happening now. Uh, what's your viewpoint on how to balance those two things?

[00:12:43] Kristin: Well, there's a very simple way that a coach a long time ago taught me and I how to think about these things. And it's and it's a very easy principle once you explain it. And it's this concept as as a leader, you have 2 trains that you're managing all the time. And one of the trains is in the business and in the business is everything that I need to do to turn that crank based on what's right in front of me. So those sharks that are closest to my body that are swimming around the things that I have to do to make sure that that cash register is ringing and those sales are coming in so that is in the business and those are those critical things that that need to happen to make sure that the business is being sustained. The other train is on the business. So those are the things that we think about that are further out and so whether or not you set that out at your 90 day, year, 2 year, 3 year, 5 year plan, those two trains are very different. And the challenge that we have in this world with all of the change and everything around us is that a lot of times we get sucked into that in the business train and that's consuming all of our thought and all of our resources. And we don't have time to work on the business. And I hear this all the time from the people that I coach and the organizations that I work in.

[00:13:54] Kristin: And it really comes back to then having that business acumen and understanding that I need to manage those both, and I have to make both of those a priority. Because my problems that I don't deal with today in terms of my long term are gonna become those sharks that are close to my body. And so it's that discipline in terms of leaders, and we hear a lot of times, it's like, well, you have to be, you know, a player coach. You know, that's a requirement now. We don't have all of these layers. Sure. You can be a player coach, but if you're a leader sitting on top of a business, you'd a business org or, you know, sitting at the c suite, the further you are up in the organization, the more of your time should be spent in the on the train. And the reality of what we see in business is it's spent being sucked into in the train. And so to really be successful to manage that, I think the first thing that leaders need to do within this is make sure that they protect that on the business time. Whether or not that can happen every day, like, how do you program that into your calendar and making sure that that you're spending that time doing those things, thinking about those things that are further out as well as as opposed to just the things that are short term. And so if you're the only one in your business unit that's doing that, you're not going to be successful.

[00:15:03] Kristin: And so I think of it in terms of like an inverse pyramid. So if I'm at the top and I'm supposed to own the most of that, everyone on my team should have, you know, a slice of that going down regardless of how far they are in the organization. And so it's that balance of how you throttle those. So when I build my organization and structure what my allocation goals are for people and what they have to deliver, the lower they are in the organization, the more that those are executors and I wanna make sure that I give them the freedom to the ability to execute but each stair step up, then I want more time around that on the business. So if your organization can be aligned and you can throttle those two things and your entire, um, work force is thinking about that that's one thing that's going to be able to prepare you for it. Because more brains that are put on something to solve these pretty gnarly problems the dimensionality that you get means the solutions that you're deploying are going to be better. So that's a very complex answer because it's a complex challenge. But so the takeaway, the headline is is that you always need to be thinking about the future while you're managing today and you need to throttle those levers and making sure that both of those are served. But as a leader, it's your responsibility to spend time and protect time for both.

[00:16:21] Phillip: Future Commerce is brought to you by bundle IQ. Accessing knowledge in today's world is crucial, but for retailers, sifting through data can be daunting. That's where bundle IQ comes in. With its assistance, you can uncover valuable insights that ecommerce brands need to find those hidden connections and make informed decisions, simplify your research and your analysis, and build better strategies with BundleIQ. I love Bundle. We use Bundle every day at Future Commerce, and I know it's gonna make a difference in the way that you operate your retail business. Get started now at bundleiq.com and tell them you heard about bundleiq on Future Commerce. It strikes me that there's kind of a dichotomy with the type of people that we seek out for those leadership positions as typically not being monofocused individuals. Like, a well rounded leader often is distracted by a number of things. Nonprofit board, seats, uh, you know, some sort of, uh, you know, extracurricular that has some sort of value add or some tangent to, um, to the business. And and I I I'm not sure that we're better for that, uh, but it does seem like we we tend to focus in on leadership that have these, you know, sort of other qualities. Um, how how monofocus should a executive leader be these days? And do you think that maybe some of that contributes to, uh, uh, when there are optical failures and, you know, big visible brands that you start to, uh, get really nitpicky about the extracurriculars?

[00:17:58] Kristin: Well, that question, there isn't a one size fits all answer. I think it has to do on the size and the scale of the organization and, you know, where it is, what you're going and what it is that you're doing. I think one of the things that has really been unearthed in this, you know, post, you know, COVID pandemic world is that there is this enormous amount of pressure for brands, you know, to step in and take some of that leadership, um, that we weren't potentially seeing from, well, places that we would traditionally see leadership within our country. And that pressure put on brands to do so much more and so Really if I was speaking to somebody that was leading a brand the most important thing what they need to understand is who you are and what you stand for and that should be your guiding principle for everything that you're doing So going back and to answer your question of like, okay, there's these passion projects. There's these other things sitting out there that I wanna make sure that I'm doing good. I'm being part of the community. And the way that you wanna look at it and say is, okay, well, this is my brand. This is who I am and what I stand for. What are the right things for me to engage in? What superpowers do I have to put towards this? And what are those lessons learned that I'm gonna bring back in terms of my business? And, like, a stellar example that I can give of this that I just thought was absolutely brilliant when I looked at Airbnb and Airbnb and the crisis happened in Ukraine and they basically did that pivot to, you know, open up housing.

[00:19:14] Kristin: And that was the perfect thing for them to engage in. So if we said that it was a vanity metrics and it was a give back metrics, we say sure, you know, that is a thing that could distract the leader. But at the end of the day, if we're using that, you know, goal post of who am I, what do I stand for, and what's important to me, then it makes those decisions easy to make as as to what it is that you need to do. So it is important for an organization to be well rounded and to understand their community. But at the end of the day, I need to be a thriving business to be able to have any of that time. And so as a leader, that has to be, you know, the thing that I'm using to make my decisions about where I invest my time.

[00:19:57] Brian: And you've done this yourself. So you founded Saucy. Uh, tell us a little bit about the the reason why you did that and what that, uh, what what that's led to for you.

[00:20:08] Kristin: Sure. So just a little bit of a backstory. I've, you know, worked in my career for a very long time, both agency side and brand side, and had done a lot of things for other people. And the pandemic was really challenging to me like a lot of other people. And, you know, it was kind of getting to that 3rd chapter and thinking about, like, what is it that I wanna do? And I had been in a position where I was basically working 20 fourseven, you know, for more than my my body could sustain. And so really needed to take the opportunity to step back and figure out who I was and what was important to me. And so I, you know, sit in a very luxurious position that I had the ability to step away from what I was doing and we'll call it, you know, go into a a retirement and think about, like, what is it that I wanted to do? And having that, you know, real self reflection around what really mattered to me and what my passions were. But also what's really important is what my talents were. So you have talents and you have passions, and those are 2 different things. We could have a whole conversation about that. So really stepping back and looking at that, I found that I needed to do something that was really inspiring to me and used all of the talents that I had over my career and being able to do it in a way where I was the sole decision maker.

[00:21:13] Kristin: I got to make the decision. I got to do everything. And then also put me back in touch with doing the work and where all the tools and the pieces are. So I looked at that and I looked at, like, what's something that's been in my life, you know, ever since I was three and a half years ago. I make sauce. I make, um, Italian sauce. I make my grandmother's sauce. And, you know, it's been this thing that I did on the side and I, you know, incubated it. I did it for team building events. I started canning it, then I started giving it away. And I was like, well, where should this go and what should this do and how can it align, you know, with with, you know, who I am and what it is that I what I care about. And as I said at the top, what I care about more than anything is I care about people and I care about the wake that I'm leaving in this world. And one of the things that we all do as human beings is we gather around the table. And this concept of gathering when we prepare and share a meal together and that, you know, what that brings us in terms of the sense of the community and the empathy and the understanding, that shared understanding that we have of individuals, there's no other mechanism that's like that in that in the world that we can have that face to face and I and I also strongly believe uh square tables are bad and you should always do round tables.

[00:22:21] Kristin: So this idea of saucy of you know where where we come together and so it's making sauce that's my grandmother's sauce and doing it in a way where I bring business leaders together and we do team building around making the sauce and the sauce is is basically you could replace any sort of business challenge that you have, but you bring people together and they have this idea of this shared experience and storytelling that comes together and making that connection of building something together and then sitting down and having that meal and that trust that happens in that experience and then the openness and receptiveness to solve problems that happens over that. And so I started this brand because I believed that it was something that was really important. And then the other thing for me to come back to that talents and passion, this is an opportunity in me and my life to marry those two things and take all the things and be, as I said, you know, the queen of my own kingdom and do it the way that I wanted and have that total expression of of myself, of who I am and what I stand for in the world. Uh,

[00:23:28] Phillip: I love this so much. Brian, it's I feel like you you, uh, identify a lot with a lot of you know, a lot of our work is breaking bread with people. Um, and, you know, I think we certainly have digital media, but it's so, um, yeah, it's so sterile.

[00:23:45] Kristin: Digital is never going to replace the human connection, and and I I am a tech enthusiast. Like, I think there is a lot that happens with tech that is really, really good. But we can look at in terms of the crisis is that we're having around the mental health in this world that nothing replaces that human connection. Nothing replaces being seen by another individual, having that ability to touch and inspire some someone happens at a whole different level when you are in person and you have that in person connection. And I feel very, very saddened by the fact that there are a lot of people that don't see the value in going back into that workplace and having that human connection with people. I think our society is worse off than if we could come together and, um, you know, meet like human beings. I mean, keyboard warriors, I think are a detriment, you know, to the industry and what it is that we're doing. And I think if we could just, you know, get out from behind our keyboards and our our screens and come and connect as human beings, um, we would find so much shared, you know, values in terms of what it is, you know, that that we care about and a way to solve it. And, you know, this comes back to a concept that Brene Brown talks a lot about and this idea of if we don't have that foundation of trust, then all of the things that we do in the meetings on the screens, those are trust conflicts instead of project conflicts.

[00:25:17] Kristin: So what we are seeing in this world where we are disconnected, because of that disconnection, we lack the foundation of trust that we used to have. So if we don't have that foundation of trust that was built on the time of walking in and out of meeting rooms, being, you know, that 5 minutes before the meeting is starting, that water cooler conversation, going to lunch. So we don't have a foundation of trust with the people that we work with in our immediate circle or radiating out from that. What then happens when you don't have a foundation of trust and you go into a meeting, meetings has historically pre were around project conflict. So you were supposed to be in the room working on the project conflict. But since we do not have the trust foundation, that meeting and 80% of the meeting is about trust conflict instead of project conflict. That is incredibly expensive for an organization. So we're sitting there worrying about all of those things and we can't get to the big gnarly problem because we don't fundamentally trust the individuals that are there. Because it's really hard to get through this screen. It just doesn't happen.

[00:26:28] Phillip: I was blown away when I learned that Omnisend is trusted by more than 100,000 merchants that use Omnisend to grow online audience and sales. And that's why Future Commerce is partnered with Omnisend, a top rated email and SMS marketing platform for online merchants. And we have secured for our audience an exclusive discount code to get you 20% off your 1st 3 months. So if you are ready to start building campaigns that really sell online and move the needle for your business, I want you to give Omnisend a try. Get 20% off for the 1st 3 months by going to Omnisend dot com slash futurecommerce. Use the discount code futurecommerce for 20% off 3 months and start delivering campaigns that sell. Go to Omnisend dotcom/futurecommerce. Thanks to Omnisend for partnering with Future Commerce in 2024. Hey, Philip here. And if you're hearing the sound of my voice right now, it's because you're not yet a member of Future Commerce Plus. Why? Because you get ad free episodes of the Future Commerce and Infinite Shelf podcasts and limited run series like Decoded and Step by Step when you join the membership. Plus, you're gonna get priority invites to our regional events like Future Commerce salons, dinner parties, and much, much more. Plus, you're gonna be first in the door at our Vision Summit, and you're gonna save a little bit of money on our annual journal and print and merch. So why are you still waiting? Plus, if you need to sell it to your boss, guess what? You're gonna get Alani bundled with Future Commerce. What is Alani? It is the private GPT that combines your data with Future Commerce's insights. Imagine a platform that allows you to see around the next corner. You get all of this plus ad free episodes of the podcast and bonus after dark content for just $20 a month. Don't just keep up with the industry. Get ahead of it. Subscribe to Future Commerce Plus. Become a member and become a futurist. Go to futurecommerce.com/plus today and join the membership. $20 a month to see around the next corner. How could you say no? Go to futurecommerce.com /+andjointhefuture.

[00:28:50] Brian: Let me ask a question. How do you extend this to your customers? Because I feel like this is the exact problem that a lot of organizations have with their customers is that everything's asynchronous. It's all happening through a screen or often even stores are almost built to be an asynchronous communication. Products themselves in many ways are asynchronous communication devices. How how can, uh, an organization take the these principles you've talked about and bring them to the customer?

[00:29:22] Kristin: Well, I think Sur La Table is actually doing a very good job of that. And if you look at what our key differentiator in the marketplace is against some of our competitors that I'm not going to name is really what you're talking about. It's really having that experience, making sure that the experience and that human connection is valued very, very highly. And so when we think about the brand Sur La Table and and what it is, yes, we have this massive, you know, endless aisle ecommerce engine that sits out there and supports our customers and gives them the products that they want and the curation pass and all of that. And so that is that is important. But the powerhouse of the brand sits in within that in real life connection of that experience. And so we design it in the fact that what happens in our stores, what people have the ability to do is to have that human connection and be that expertise that allows to you to meet you wherever you are in your culinary aspirational journey and give you the tools, the equipment, um, the content that you need to take you to that next level. And so when we think about that in designing what I'll just call, like, a a retail term, that best of center experience that happens within the mall environment, then the .com's responsibility is to translate that in a digital world in a way that some of that goodness comes out throughout that experience.

[00:30:49] Kristin: And so we were kind of talking about it and the, you know, the need. Promo promo promo promo. Put that promo up. Get that person to buy this thing. We have map pricing, you know, and, you know, all the things that we need to do. And what our data is showing, and we're seeing this day in, day out, while you do have, we'll call them, the head turner moments of the promotion, to really get someone to buy is still that need for that human connection and translating that through. And so if we look at a shopping path and we sit there and go, here's this thing, here's what it looks like, here's the price point, go put it in your cart. Sure, we may convert somebody and they may come through and they may buy it, but are they a loyal customer? Are they gonna come back? Whereas if we can change that path and say, hey. You were interested in this, so do you need to explore more? Do you need to understand more about this? Where it is then on your skill set and why is this, like, insert pot, knife, whatever different and how does that meet what your need is? And here's some inspirational videos.

[00:31:46] Kristin: Here's some recipes that you can make. Customers, instead of just going through like this, they may go through a path, they may go back and forth, and they may stay all the way here and come come back down. So we have to understand that those two things are really important. And I will charge any leader and say that you can put that inspiration while still being a hard hitting promo messaging. So you can sit there and say Labor Day sale, blah blah blah, whatever, x percentage off, but yet when you start going through that path, how do you put that inspiration and that storytelling there to turn somebody in from an initial purchaser to a brand advocate? And they're going to invest in a brand and keep coming back if they see you as that source of inspiration that is that is meeting those needs that that that they have. Otherwise, all you're gonna have is a result revolving door and you may be able to win in the low cost acquisition, but you're not gonna win in terms of the loyalty and you're not gonna reach your bold aspirations in terms of your growth and where you want to hit.

[00:32:47] Phillip: Oh, wow. I'm do and having heard you say that now, it makes me rethink and, like, analyze my experiences at Sur La Table going like, being in in the store, in the cooking demo, or the the little knife workshop, or, like, the little things that I've gone in for have actually been quite, you know, deliberate, uh, in the way that they're asking me, well, what do you do? How do you cook? And it's like, you you very quickly find out that I'm the HelloFresh guy. Like, we're gonna do HelloFresh, and I'm not too fussy. I probably don't even choose my meals because I forget to because I missed my Wednesday cutoff. Like, I you know, like, um, so my needs are are very simple, but my tastes are very expensive. Um, I'm a very specific kind of a customer, but you're not gonna know that about me if I'm on Amazon shopping for whatever the algorithm has pushed to me. You only know that about me because I've spent some time having a human connection over it, and it takes 13 seconds apparently to just describe that. But we're not gonna do that in a digital channel, and it feels laborious for me to offer that up asynchronously.

[00:33:55] Kristin: Well, and to come back to that and saying, like, we're gonna talk about Amazon. I mean, Amazon is the leader of of convenience. Right? They're gonna serve you up something and you're gonna get it. And we do have a shop on Amazon and it does very well for us, but that shop would not do as well if we didn't understand our customer and what we need. So if you're gonna come back and you're gonna want just the deal breaker of buying the Breville oven or what have you and get it on Prime Day and get it for this, we can't we can't compete with Amazon. So what we have to understand is complement and where that sits in terms of our channel strategy and what we're ultimately going to do. And so, yes, we can sell on Amazon Marketplace, and it's a great place for us all day long. But in terms of my protection of the brand and what the brand means and this premium aspect that's really going to be that position of that culinary leader, I can't build my business through that channel alone. And so I have to understand what are the purpose of those other channels and how they are doing that to complement that. So if there is that need for ease and convenience, we do have a place and they can go there and we can serve that. But if you're somewhere else in your journey and and you need something else, Amazon can't service that. And so we have to recognize what our other channels, you know, are for.

[00:35:10] Phillip: Can I can I float out a a a bit of an idea for you, Kristen? Uh, we're working on this piece of research right now thinking about what comes next with the new consumer. And if this new consumer who doesn't have their own spending power yet, let's call them Gen Alpha, but doesn't matter what the name is.

[00:35:26] Kristin: They like.

[00:35:27] Phillip: Right. Yeah. Whoever whomever they may be, um, where did they spend time right now, and how is that how how does their channels of communication the way they relate to the factors of trust in the world and their human connections in the world? If they are more digital than they've ever been, uh, if they are more multiplayer than they've been, if they're more game centric than they've ever been, um, how how does that change the context of shopping in 15, 20 years' time?

[00:35:54] Kristin: I think it comes back to, you know, our ability to research very, very quickly and get both good and bad data, you know, and and that we are not gonna stop this concept of of researching online and having that accessibility. We are seeing time and time again, though, with that younger generation that that is not the only place that the majority of people are going. That's what I'm saying. That's that that's that initial push, where it is, where I'm gonna do really quickly. We are still seeing that need to go out and reach out for that, you know, secondhand influence of, you know, my community having that hands on experience. And I think it also depends on what it is that you're buying or selling, um, and and what is required to make that decision. Buying gum is a very different conversation than buying a car, than buying car insurance, than buying software. And so I think it's looking at those those journeys and what's important about where that is there. Nothing will replace the impact of the human connection and putting your hands on experience. I learned this in the very, very dawn of my career starting at Revlon and I was very young at the time and I got to go in and have, I mean, Revlon is an incredible marketer.

[00:37:08] Kristin: And if you don't know anything about them, I mean, just realize they've sold a lot of toilet water for very expensive money to get people to buy something that you lose the scent in like 7 seconds. But what they fundamentally taught me in my first, you know, formalized sales training was that the goal was always to touch the customer and get the product on the customer because that connection, that transformation that happens at that level, you cannot replace that in a digital world. And so when we look at it and say, okay, well, how do we replicate that in the digital world and what are the things that we're out there? It's really talking about all those touch points across the consumer. And the first time that the consumer is touching it is when they get that product. And so when we were looking at a packaging design, we were always talking about that out of box experience like how does that feel and does that meet that expectation that we've put, you know, in the entire, you know, pre marketing of that item and where it is and then what are all the post things? So again, if it's a very highly considered purchase and it's complement, maybe you got me to buy my, you know, new luxury sedan, I come in and I get it and then I have a problem with my servicing or getting it done, then that has hurt the brand.

[00:38:15] Kristin: And so when we think about that in terms of, like, what's important with that consumer, it's more so than ever that young consumer is making sure that we understand all of those engagement points, and we're building to a crescendo that we can maintain after the purchase Because they are going to be more fickle than any other generation that we've seen. They are more skeptical. So that puts more onus on us to come back to that point that we talked at the top of the comms, understand who I am, what I stand for, and then build my go to market strategy to be consistent across that so that what I am seeding all the way at the top of the funnel versus what I'm pulling through in terms of all of the post purchase is consistent and so aligning and that customer is aligned with who I am and what I'm standing for. And then they will stay tried and true to me.

[00:39:07] Brian: This is a lot of data points. So you're in there. You're communicating with the customers, you're bringing them into workshops, you're getting them to follow different funnels. This is, like, a lot of data. And and your your point about the human connection, we we've talked about this a ton of future commerce, obviously, as a but there's a one concept called the phenomenological data, which is the idea that experiences a phenomena of the moment and would have you that moment is something that's very specific to a specific individual. And Sur La Table is a huge company. Right? So you're doing this at scale. How do you take the human connection in the and those very individual data points and and and that they're story driven. They're they're in the moment. They're unique to it to that person and them only often, uh, and turn that into something that's usable throughout the rest of the org, and that can be communicated back out to potentially other people that might have some sort of similar moment.

[00:40:11] Kristin: So so I'll give an example of of what you're talking about, and we'll look at it in terms of and I you guys both cook day in and day out. How many knives do you have in your in your, um, kitchen?

[00:40:23] Phillip: Oh, I have, like, 5, at least.

[00:40:25] Kristin: How many

[00:40:26] Phillip: Do you use? 1.

[00:40:28] Kristin: How sharpens it?

[00:40:30] Phillip: Oh, I sharpen it, like, every 6 months or so through knife aid.

[00:40:36] Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Phillips Phillips keeps this stuff up. I don't really sharpen my knives, but I do have a really nice knife, so it doesn't need to be sharpened very often.

[00:40:44] Kristin: Well, Well, it still needs to be sharpened. I'm saying I'm gonna guess more than enough. So if we look at it in terms of knives, part of what you're talking about and and and what you need to understand is that we have to be bold enough to go out and say something to the effect of if you are going to buy a chef's knife. So let's say an 8 inch ten inch chef's knife. It's the staple that you use day in and day out, and it's the thing that you're gonna grab for. If I go back and ask you about why you use the knife that you do, it feels right in your hand. Right? So if it feels right in your hand, then all the communication, everything we need to do is get that knife in your hand. And we have to align behind that and pull that through everything. And so what that is is coming back to, like, finding that insight of that point of where that that emotional connection is going to be with whatever that product or surface it is and how we can replicate or come close to that to either a digital world or a physical world. So if I understand that, then I might need to be bold enough to say don't ever buy a chef knife unless you can put it in your hand.

[00:41:44] Kristin: And you're gonna be like, well, I'm not near a store. What is it that I can do? So then how can we put a guide online that allows you to understand based on the knives that you have there? Go into your drawer, pull them out, you know, see what it is. And then what does that look like in terms of that, you know, the knives that we offer and how to find something that's the right fit for you. But that means that you may have to give up the sale in front of you to to get the sale in the future, but that ultimately is going to build that loyalty. So that responsibility is really on that what we're gonna say. I'm gonna go back to that anthropologist, that data scientist to understand what is that moment that that connection happens to create that impact to shift a mindset to go to pull the trigger to to buy that item, but then also have that halo of love, you know, that is consistent that comes back with the out of box experience and it's aligned with what's there. And it's different for every product, you know, so that I just used a knife example. It would be different for for a whole bunch of other things, but that's that's the thing that we have to really focus on.

[00:42:54] Brian: I love this. Kristen, you've just gone through some planning in your org. You're thinking about the future. Everything that you've said has just been so validating, uh, for for us and the things that we think about, the things that we do at Future Commerce, the why behind the human connection, the commerce is culture. Uh, and I think, uh, I I'd love to get your viewpoint on the next 3 to 5 years, how things are shifting, uh, the role of AI and technology ahead, um, and, uh, how the consumer's changing ultimately, what you see coming down the the the pipe as far as how how culture is shifting and how people people are gonna interact with brands in the future.

[00:43:36] Kristin: Well, that's a lot. I mean, we can have a whole conversation on that. So I'll just try to give you some, um, some I mean, we've talked about AI is not going away. AI is going to be here. It is going to touch almost every facet of our business. And so if you're not embracing AI, like, that's the first thing that any leader needs to do. I mean, you need to be using it in your own personal life. You need to be using it in your business life. You you need to explore where it is because the changes are gonna be astronomical. So I think, you know, that's just one thing that that is going to be there. And we kind of talked about it. I think the other biggest challenge that we look at it in terms of established organizations is really understanding your tech stack and where your tech stack is, um, and what is it built for and how you're going to be able to, uh, you know, expand in the future in terms of what you're adding on to that. And this idea that we used to be like, I had this one thing and this was it and it was gonna be the forever thing. I mean, that's gone away and you really need to make sure as the marketers that what you're investing in is going to give you the ability to adapt in the future. And that you're not, um, that you're not necessarily, um, starstruck by the overwhelming amount of things that are there. You need to really think about what are the core issues that are gonna drive your success.

[00:44:58] Kristin: What are those big game changers? And so I'm sorry that there's not a specific answer for the for the company, but you need to understand where where you are today and what it is it that you need to get to. And so part of that is making sure that you have a unified customer database and you really understand and that data in there is really good, and you're able to pull actionable insights out of it. Because that's gonna tell you what you're either lacking or, you know, so it's determining what your go gets are. And if you can't see that, that's also gonna tell you where your go gets are. So you have to keep that mindset of constantly going out. And it's like, you know, I'm probably gonna open it up. Like, people send me things all the time. And I'm like, all right, pitch me in 5 minutes. I'll give you 10 minutes on my calendar. Tell me what it is. And then I'm constantly going out there and seeing those things and be like, hey, that's not there today, but I'm at least aware of where it is and try trying to determine where it is in terms of my roadmap. The hardest thing for retailers right now, I believe, is that our aspirations way exceed our resources that we have to put to something. And so the other work that organizations really need to do, and that's why I'm saying, like, where's your leadership? Where's your business acumen? Is that the organization is aligned on what those go gets are and that they are turning as a cruise ship to all go get those.

[00:46:13] Kristin: Now recognizing that in your plan within that as a as a good leader, I need to have a percentage that's set aside constantly for innovation, you know, and looking at those things and testing those things and bringing them in so that I have that mindset of protecting my base and what the other thing is out there. I think in terms of what is going to be valuable in the next 3 to 5 years, and I've said this for a long time, anything that can be automated is going to become cheaper and less valuable. What consumers are going to value are the things that cannot be automated. So this idea of this, you know, kind of we'll call it this this consumerism where I'm just taking something, buying it, and throwing it away, that is going to change because as resources get tighter we are going to invest in those things that are more unique and we see it and there's some movement around sustainability, we see it in terms of that farm to table and those pieces. So going back and saying like, it means I'm sitting in a really good position to be sitting at this company because this idea of gathering and cooking food is always going to be here. And then what is it that we do around how to make that to make that better? So I mean, we can have conversations on all of those and more, but, I mean, those are just some of the things that I think about when, you know, we start looking at the future.

[00:47:32] Brian: I love that. The the a bit about things that can be automated will be automated, I think is essential for people understand right now, and they're gonna get like you said, they're gonna become less valuable. The more the more that we can push the machines that make sense for machines to handle, the better. That's what people really meant when they said, let's get rid of friction. They didn't really understand what they meant, which was we need to correctly classify the things that should be handled by machines and push those things to machines.

[00:47:59] Kristin: Well Like Right. And we can talk about I mean, the industrial revolution was, in some ways, one of the worst things that happened to human beings because it put us in the position to be seen as a machine and do repetitive work. And so while there this concept of scale and being able to make the world more equal in in in terms of getting some of these goods, It was the wrong thing for human beings and this idea and we're seeing it like outside of just retail. This one size fits all, this one size career path that you have to go through and you have to compete in these standardized tests and you get this, You're going to be successful. All we need to do is look at the leaders of the most successful companies. How many of them have a formalized education and hit all of those pieces? I'm a prime example of that. I am a poster carrying dyslexic that could not read at 13. I do not have a college education. And I have worked with some of the most successful brands on the planet and advised some of the world's biggest CEOs, and I did not have that formalized, you know, system. And so this idea of where we need to be as a society, we have to move away from that concept of the industrial revolution and recognize that there are different ways and different paths and different styles to everything and embrace the diversity that is our world as opposed to try to put it into a monoculture, mono way, and that's the only way that we think.

[00:49:28] Brian: There's so many things I wanna say about this, and you were right. This is a whole conversation. We should have you back on the show. But I I think the problem is that we are actually still on the path of the industrial revolution where we're actually taking people's minds and putting them into this, like, point system that treats them like machines. We we've been doing that. Our our linear algorithm type think based thinking uh, computing, we've been trying to fit our mind into computers' thoughts, the way the computer works. In reality, we actually operate completely different than that, and we need to turn those things back over to machines to let them do what they're best at. Uh, I am so on board with that. And and the diversity of I mean, some of I literally just said to Philip, some of the best people I've ever worked with don't have college educations. Yeah. That and that's that's I think that people that grapple with things themselves and are able to turn them over in their minds, uh, those are the people you're looking for. People that are ready to take their mind and push it up against something. Even if they could go get that information for themselves, like, you could find it and read about it and absorb it, like, without having thought through it, that you're looking for people that maybe don't do that. They they go push into something with their own brain and and come to terms with it and understand it at the most base levels because they push through and, like, figured it figured it out from from the from the ground up. Um, and now I'm just preaching. But yeah.

[00:51:08] Phillip: Kristin, where can people find saucy? Where can they find more about you? Where can we point people to you to learn more?

[00:51:13] Kristin: Well, I mean, at the end end of the day, LinkedIn is the end all be all of, like, business networking. So I would say, you know, Christian Forte on LinkedIn. Um, if you're interested in learning more about saucy and what's there, it is at gimmesaucy.com. And I do sell sauce there. I also do team building, so those other pieces. And, you know, more importantly, if you wanna see what I'm grappling with in the world of ecommerce, I mean, um, I've got a, um, a fantastic brand that has, you know, herculean challenges just like the rest of us, and that's Sur La Table. And so, you know, check out the site, see what it is that we're doing, and you can watch us on this path as we try to solve these same problems that everyone else is facing day in and day out in the real world.

[00:51:56] Phillip: Amazing. Thank you so much, Kristen. Appreciate your time. And, uh, thank you all for listening to this episode of Future Commerce. You can find more episodes of this podcast at futurecommerce.com and join the membership for ad free listening and, uh, exclusive insights for executive members at futurecommerce.com/plus.