VISIONS Live: Monoculture in the Modern Age: How a Fragmented Media Landscape Co-Creates Moments that Matter

Phillip: [00:00:08] Welcome to VISIONS, a podcast by Future Commerce, presented this season in partnership with Bloomreach, the personalization platform for marketers to be limitless, and in partnership with BigCommerce and Stripe, global partners in innovation for checkout and payments. Hi. I'm Phillip. This season on VISIONS, we're examining the modern monoculture. And there's nothing more monocultural in my lifetime than media. We used to look at all media the same way that we look at the blue sky, we see it the same way, interact with it the same way, and experience and consume it the same way. But is that true today? Today we go to a live recording with Hitha Herzog and Kate Lindsay, two people who cover the intersection of how retail, commerce, ecommerce, and cultural trends are changing the world around us.

Announcer: [00:01:47] Please welcome retail analyst and author of Black Market Billions, Hitha Herzog, and from Embedded, culture writer and TikTok creator, Kate Lindsay. And welcome back to the stage, Phillip Jackson.

Phillip: [00:01:59] Wow. Hello. Old friends and new. This is the session that I've been waiting for. They're all good, obviously. But it's rare that we get the opportunity to have a conversation where you're with people at two ends of covering the same happenings in the world, but at two different ends of their careers and with two different trajectories. And so, I just want to sort of set the stage real quick. We all live, I'm terminally online. I don't know about the rest of you. I'm terminally online. But the way that we experience this reality has a lot to do with the media that we consume. And the two guests here with us, Kate and Hitha both, helped to create that reality in media. Kate, let's talk a little bit about this idea of monoculture. What are some of these big, momentous, monocultural events maybe that have happened in 2024 so far? Anything stick out to you?

Kate Lindsay: [00:03:03] Yeah. For me, I feel like the barometer for when something has hit monoculture is when, like, Twitter is just unusable if that's something you don't want to talk about. So the verdict in the Trump trial, I would say Taylor Swift's album, anything where if you want to be seen at all, you kind of have to talk about it, especially now with algorithms. Yeah. And if you want to talk about anything else, you're going to have to save it for the next news day.

Phillip: [00:03:35] Where do you talk about that sort of stuff?

Kate Lindsay: [00:03:38] I talk about that... So is this where I'm plugging myself?

Phillip: [00:03:40] Yeah.

Kate Lindsay: [00:03:41] Alright. I talk about that sort of stuff on my newsletter, Embedded. Yeah. It's an internet culture newsletter, but I would say, that's pretty broad because the Internet's broad and so is culture. And, you know, it'll just kind of be, honestly, it's pretty selfish. It's just whatever during the week before I was thinking about a lot or coming across a lot or if there's sort of a way into a topic that I think might be a little bit different, then that's what I'll write about, sort of a quick essay. And so, on even the Trump trial, which I am not qualified to talk about in any real way, there are still ways into it. And in this case, it was sort of the sheer number of updates we now get about these monoculture moments and how sometimes that can feel a little over-updated.

Phillip: [00:04:30] Yeah. It feels like we go through these cycles, Hitha, of how much does the mass media or does traditional media have influence in the culture anymore? What say you? Is there still influence in traditional media?

Hitha Herzog: [00:04:56] {mic fumble} You would think that I would know how to work in a mic considering I'm on broadcast news a couple times a week. Do I think that media still has influence over that? Yeah. I think we tend to forget that media isn't just consumed online. There's a whole part of the population that still watches nightly news. They might be older than a lot of us, but they still consume that and they still watch it. And the way it might have taken them longer, executives, television executives, people who are on the news or on television or even writing, to understand that maybe they're a little later to a substack or updating their Twitter or social media, but, by golly, they're getting on it and they're realizing that, yes, maybe something may air on television, but they're learning ways to cut that up and put it out there so that it becomes relevant and sticks around. I'll give you an example. My husband works for a late-night television show, and it's really interesting to see how... And we've known each other for 15 years. We've kind of gone through our careers together, and it's really interesting to see how late-night television has really become the voice of the news and the voice of what we should know versus a hit that I'm doing during a daytime TV show or even a morning television show.

Phillip: [00:06:26] So there's like a real generational shift here, Kate. My father-in-law asked me some time ago if I would set up a blog for him. And I was like, "Well, we don't blog anymore. We Instagram." And then he says, "Well, should I set up an online store? Should I set up an ecommerce store?" I'm like, "Uh, I think people do TikTok now as the default channel." You seem to have started there, but you also work as a writer in traditional media too. What are those default channels, and are they truly generationally cleaved?

Kate Lindsay: [00:07:05] Yeah. I mean, I think with something like TikTok, I would say that that is where all the conversation is happening now. And I think the only reason there is a generational perception to it is because of how it was introduced and when it started getting coverage in 2019 and 2020 as like this Gen Z dancing app. And no one even dances anymore on it. It's honestly a shame. And it's really everything else. And I've also come across creators of all ages, and I'm trying really hard to get my parents to use TikTok because I think they'd enjoy it. And mostly, I want them to understand what I'm talking about whenever I'm home. But I think I also don't think everyone, speaking to monoculture, has to be on TikTok. And I think, yeah, when I write across different outlets, it's good as a creative exercise to sort of figure out who is it that I'm talking to here. And so something like The Atlantic, they may not care about the specific TikTok influencer, but neither does... It's not necessarily a generational thing. I just think we're all coming at culture from our own little directions. And so I think it's good to... My sort of short answer to this is it's good to have multiple outlets and multiple sources because I think if we're all coming at it assuming everyone's on TikTok, that really is only one part of the story. And so I think the more you can diversify, the better. And I think that includes going on TikTok if it's something that seems too young or not for you. It's kind of the only way you're going to get a different look at the same event that's happening.

Phillip: [00:08:53] Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.

Hitha Herzog: [00:08:54] I have to say I have an 89 year old aunt in law that is on TikTok all the time. She is at the doctor's office, and she says, "Oh, I just saw this really interesting thing on TikTok." I said, "Auntie, I didn't think you were watching this," but to your point, I think, sure, there certainly is a conversation happening on TikTok, but I really want everyone to understand too that there are terrestrial things like AM radio that are seizing, I know it sounds ridiculous, but when we think about who is swaying things like votes in the middle of the country, the conversation is happening around things that are being put out on AM radios or even worse radio stations. I shouldn't say worse. I'm trying to be neutral here, but stations that are owned by conglomerates that have specific messaging that's going out there. So people who don't have internet access. We are assuming that everyone has 5G out in the middle of these rural areas. I'm from New Mexico. My mom lives in an Adobe home. Yes. It's a nice neighborhood, but you cannot get Internet access in this house. As much as I tried to do a Zoom from that house, I can't do it, and I know her neighbors are in the same position. So when you have communities out there like that and they don't have that kind of full speed access, the messaging becomes different. And I think as marketers and as people who are trying to sell product, we have to understand that you have to understand that. There are multiple layers to the conversation. So don't be shocked if we talk about a monoculture, but there are so many other pockets of conversation that are swaying things.

Phillip: [00:10:41] It's so true. I grew up down the street from a guy who was an independent ham radio operator who had a pirate radio station that he ran out of his house with an antenna in the backyard. Real interesting fella. And I heard that guy say permissionless more than your average Web3 person. He doesn't need someone's permission to broadcast.

Hitha Herzog: [00:11:08] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:11:08] And it seems like we go through these, you also don't need someone's permission to post a TikTok, but there's still some prestige around the permission gate kept media that that's when you've really made it. Or am I wrong, Kate?

Kate Lindsay: [00:11:21] No. I think I mean, I notice it too. So one of the pieces I wrote for The Atlantic was about a phenomenon called The Millennial Pause, which is when some millennials perhaps go to take a front facing video, they'll be like sort of a split second pause in the beginning before they speak when they're just checking to make sure the camera's recording. Whereas someone who's younger like Gen Z, who's more digitally native, already trusts that and goes right into it. So I actually wrote that first for Embedded, my newsletter, and it did fine. But to see the difference between the two reactions when it went on The Atlantic, it absolutely exploded. And I do think it's because it kind of got that seal of approval and that somewhere back Harriet Beecher Stowe was like, yes, millennial pause endorsed.

Phillip: [00:12:16] Well, there's something to be said, though, of the prestige of traditional media, you know, you're on television.

Hitha Herzog: [00:12:22] I am on television.

Phillip: [00:12:26] You've made it to some degree. Right? Yeah. But what is, from your perspective, that was where your career started was breaking into media platforms like that. Is there a desire that you have to go the other way?

Hitha Herzog: [00:12:44] So a couple years ago, I was having a conversation with a dear friend of mine who has a PR agency, and he said if this was 1981, Hitha, for the amount of times that you've been on television, you would be a global star. Now, it is 2024, and some of you are probably just seeing me for the first time. You're, like, "Who is this Indian woman on stage? I've never seen her. Who is she?" And I'm not kidding when I say, on average, I'm on TV about three to four times on national news. Good Morning America, Fox Business, Fox News, talking about retail and consumer spending that, you know, these are big audiences, and so does it mean that you made it? Is it still relevant? For my purposes, yes, because the audience that I'm trying to reach still watches television, but my audience tends to be a little bit older. They tend to work in finance, and I sell research to them. It is also used as a marketing tool for me too. When I said news people are starting to become more savvy about when we're on TV, we cut that up and we put it on different social channels. It is no longer a one and done thing. Once you're on TV, you've made it. It is now a process. It's a long process. It's you have to be very vigilant and have a lot of, gosh, how long have I been doing this for? 15 years? Oh, a while? Phillip's known me for a while. So I think it's not just a one and done thing, and I think that is the mistake that people make. It's so prestigious. Yes. You could say to people that you've been on the Today Show, but then the next day, you know, it's kind of like, Well, what else have you done for me lately?"

Phillip: [00:16:18] Now let's take all of this, and let's pivot to what it really means for consumer brands who are trying to participate in all of this, because I think that it still is very important for a consumer brand when they get onto a platform like the Today Show, when they get into Steals and Deals, when they're on Good Morning America, when they're on the national stage there, somehow it has a higher echelon of having become it's the next phase of graduation to being a legitimate brand.

Hitha Herzog: [00:18:13] Absolutely. But think about the way that Steals and Deals and those types of segments are being used, so when you're on a segment like that, that gets put on the Today Show website or Good Morning America website, and then that takes on a life of its own. There's also a call to action in those segments. Now if there's a CEO of a company that's just on talking about the future of rosemary. I don't know. Rosemary spray. I'm thinking about rosemary spray right now. That's a little bit different. Will that necessarily sell that product? No. I always tell people when they come to me for advice about whether or not, you know, should I hire a publicist, I always ask them why. What is your end result? Do you want to sell your company? Do you want to build yourself up as a CEO? Do you want to sell product? And then backtrack that because all of those reasons have a different strategy to that. So, yes, it is extremely prestigious to say you're on that show, but how are you effectively using that opportunity?

Phillip: [00:19:27] It's such an interesting piece there. I want to get to some of these bigger trends, which I think are trends are the way that we contextualize group awareness of something. So I think first, Kate, let's define what is a trend to you in the TikTok echelon versus the Substack echelon? And how do you think that that might differ from how we think about trends in the traditional fashion?

Kate Lindsay: [00:19:55] Yeah. So I think something that a lot of people are probably familiar with is just, like, the basic thing of three is a trend. But I think with tools like TikTok and Substack and Twitter, where you're kind of seeing everyone talking at once, to me, there are things like, oh, Indie Sleaze is back or Twee is back. Like, everything's back, but it's all happening at the same time. And so trends are really more what these kind of gatekeepers pick up on and decide to elevate because it's not possible for someone to be coastal grandmother, tomato girl summer, indie sleaze. It can't all be happening at once. These are all actual things. I know it sounds like I'm just having a stroke. But all these things have been sort of, they're all happening every... I think weirdly, the proliferation of trends and trend naming and errors and aesthetic has honestly pushed more the other way, which is, like, I'm less a believer in trends and more that all this stuff is happening all at once. All these different people are expressing themselves and dressing and doing skin care, whatever, all at once. And the only real linear narrative is who and what picks up on it and elevates it.

Phillip: [00:21:11] And just a quick follow-up on that too. Would you then characterize, you know, the trend of dupes and nostalgia, are these things that are more permanent because they're more abstract?

Kate Lindsay: [00:21:26] Yeah. I feel like... So I can't believe I brought up tomato girl summer. But something like tomato girl summer, if you don't know what that is, I think we can discern is very niche. It's just like a type of vibe, essentially, that you aspire for. But whereas something like nostalgia that's really broad and also means something different to everyone. My nostalgia is different from your nostalgia, and it's also inevitable. I've just started seeing things that where people are bringing back, like, what my childhood is under the sort of header of nostalgia, and that's been bizarre. Yeah. And so I think you can pull like, I think what's interesting is to see, not to say that trends are meaningless, but when you see sort of a coherent through line between these many trends like nostalgia, you can kind of get at the heart of what is driving these things, and I think that makes it also a bit more accessible.

Phillip: [00:22:25] Hitha, you wrote a book called Black Market Billions. You talk about this idea that the way we buy is influenced a lot by the mechanisms in which it gets to us. And what do you think about dupe culture and this idea of finding the synthesizing the feeling of owning the thing without actually having to spend the money on the big thing?

Hitha Herzog: [00:22:48] I have a very polarizing take on dupe culture mostly because, as you said, I spent ten months writing this book about following the money trail of fakes and of counterfeit items and what that was funding abroad. And you can listen to my book on Audible if you want to check it out later. But so I think the dupe culture, while I understand people want to save money, it could breed to really scary things. If you get a fake that is bad for your skin, I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg. You don't know... I don't know. I mean, I could go on about this, but I don't really, short answer is that I don't love it. I think if you can't afford to buy an Hermes handbag, don't buy it. Just don't buy it. And there's a reason why. I think it also leads to another question too as to why do people feel they need to have a specific thing to make them feel cool or important or rich or better or smarter, and I think that is what I find pretty interesting. In fact, I might write a second book about the psychology of that. What drives us or what drives the customer? Because that's what's fueling this dupe culture. What is missing or not in the psychology of the consumer that makes them want to have something that's fake to make them feel better? And if we can kind of get into that and present commerce around that, I think that is actually really interesting.

Kate Lindsay: [00:24:25] Well, I was going to say I think my guess, I'm not a psychologist, but a lot of what I think these trends and eras boil down to is sort of the pursuit of an identity. And I think these objects, like a designer bag, represent a desirable identity to someone and then, you know, but like you said, they're not accessible. And so then that's like dupe specific. But just when I think about why there's this sort of recent rise in naming everything and categorizing trends and coming up with little words is, the Internet is really just a place to, it all boils down to just everyone retweeting something with, like, "This is so me." That's all we're doing online, but in different words all the time. It's like, "This is me. I'm this." And I do think sometimes, especially if you've grown up online, when you're doing the identity exploration that we all do and you have the Internet in front of you, if someone's like, "Here's a weirdly named but easy to follow identity like coastal grandmother," or "If you get this bag, you'll be like this influencer." I think that's what's driving it.

Hitha Herzog: [00:25:43] Maybe it's a sense of community too.

Kate Lindsay: [00:25:44] Yeah. Yeah.

Hitha Herzog: [00:25:45] I think we've had a a real miss of community. I think I still have PTSD from being in lockdowns. Honestly, I talk about this so much that, you know, we're now, what two years after the kind of final lockdowns?

Phillip: [00:26:01] I'm from Florida. It's been, like, 5 years.

Hitha Herzog: [00:26:02] {laughter} Okay. 5 years. Okay. So it's a little bit more recent here in New York, but maybe it is that sense of community too, and I think it, again, leads into commerce. I mean, do we create communities around the things that we're trying to purchase? I see that. I mean, that's another aspect of buying and selling things. Your community gets excited about your product. I mean, you mentioned Taylor Swift. I mean, she's the queen of that. Right? This community that has now spanned generations, but I think maybe that could potentially be a part of it too.

Kate Lindsay: [00:26:35] Yeah. Because even if you think about, let's say, there's a viral mascara or something, when someone's showing it these days, it's less like I bought it or here's me wearing it. It's try this mascara with me. That's literally what they'll call the video. And it's all about they probably did that because they saw someone else do it. And so it's not even about as much as the mascara, but about, like, well, I saw someone trying it and they were so surprised by how great it was. And now I'm going to mimic that. And it's like, that's the community of, like, "I heard about this and I want to try it." And it's just it's all like showing each other things.

Phillip: [00:27:09] That's participatory at its core is wanting to be not just consumer of the media, but an active contributor and a co creator with it. And I think that's where I see commerce a little differently. We're looking for more ways to be part of that story. And we'll just consume and consume and consume and consume to try to be part of it. Maybe there's something deeper. And maybe I'll have to miss the next two or three trends because I participated in the last one or two.

Hitha Herzog: [00:27:40] No. But I think you hit the nail on the head. You just said it. Story. And, you know, I've been watching on these incredible presentations, and I feel like that's a thread that's been going through this entire afternoon is this story creation. We're creating stories around what we're trying to buy and tell and what we're doing here today. It's this story that people are relating to a story. We're telling a story, and whether that story ends up that customers are purchasing into it or buying into it is really about how you tell that story.

Phillip: [00:28:11] I love it. I could talk to you both for hours. Maybe I'll do that. You should come on to my podcast. We should do a very very long version of it.

Hitha Herzog: [00:28:19] Love that.

Phillip: [00:28:19] We do have a couple minutes for questions. I'd love to get, speaking of participation, get you involved. Oh, Ingrid. Hi, Ingrid. Wait for a microphone real quick. I'll run one to you.

Hitha Herzog: [00:28:28] Here we go. Thanks.

Guest Question: [00:28:32] Hi. Kate, I'm a really big fan. I stan Embedded.

Kate Lindsay: [00:28:36] Thank you.

Guest Question: [00:28:37] So I have a thought and then a question that spurred from the thought. So when you guys were talking about authority, right, so traditional media has authority, the Today Show, the morning show, an appearance of your brand within that context, The Atlantic, does have a level of gravitas. Right? I'm curious with the generation that's coming up now that didn't really grow up watching these morning shows, didn't really grow up having print media in their homes. I'm still in that bridge generation that I had that, but my children won't probably... Well, I have The Atlantic at my house, but you know what I'm just saying? I'm rare amongst my friend group that still gets print magazines. I'm curious if you envision a world that those levels of authority start to come to life through new media. Like, will TikTok eventually or the version of TikTok in 10 years from now have that level of gravitas that we now expect from an Atlantic or a Today Show? What's the vision of authority in the future?

Kate Lindsay: [00:29:42] Yeah. That's a hard thing. I've noticed it with covering creators these days because they have reached that... I don't know the Atlantic's numbers, but they have reached that kind of far outstrips many typical media organizations. And it can also, they don't actually really have much to gain from being like, "Oh, can I profile you on GQ?" Because they have their own audience and they can be in charge of their image. And like I said, have more of a following. And from just what I've seen, like, they definitely recognize if someone's on TV that's very cool or they understand that something being put in The New York Times is legitimate. But I don't think that's really where they're getting their news. A lot of the news is very citizen word-of-mouth. Someone on TikTok aggregating an article from one of these places, but much more casually and colloquially. And then people stitch or do that with their own takes, and the news is more so the conversation. But I don't think that means I mean, I don't really have a great prediction. But I don't think that means that these sort of authorities are going to go away because I do think even for this new era of news consumption, it's these places that have legitimacy that are like the seed. And then they take that article or study or statistic, and then they disperse it in their own way. And the real question is how does that or how can that original source benefit from it? Because right now they really don't because their work is just getting kind of repeated and regurgitated on TikTok and no one's clicking on them.

Hitha Herzog: [00:31:28] News organizations have made, have spent billions of dollars making sure that their brand equity is never diluted, and while we can have a conversation about the legitimacy of the New York Times or if Fox News means anything or Today Show is just a bunch of ladies out there giggling, you know, on set, like what are they saying? Not to diss them. I love them over there. But the brand equity is there. That will never ever go away. Same thing. When we think about their talk about the BBC, it's still like, "Oh, the BBC." I think it is now the way that that is going to be consumed. So maybe your kids won't watch the Today Show in the morning getting ready for school. My kids don't. They're 5 and a half. We do not have the Today Show. We have no morning show on. And I'm in news. You think that I would have that on. I don't have that on, but the way that they do get news or the way that they do get informed is through YouTube shorts. They watch YouTube Kids. They watch a lot of Netflix Kids. And I think now that will maybe inform them. They're not on social. They're 5 and a half. I'm sure they're going to be on social at some point, but I think the brand equity of the news organizations will never, I don't think, ever be diluted.

Kate Lindsay: [00:32:55] I think we have time for one more question.

Guest Question: [00:33:04] Hello. My name is Rashad. Really appreciated all of the perspective and insights that you've been able to give through this. I want to kind of go back to the idea of authenticity and maybe its relationship with trust. I think we'd be talking about two different things if we're talking about trust with news and media versus products, consumption, commerce, and we may see here and there now there's a sort of, like, disadvantage that institutions have with younger generations and maybe a lack of trust. And I know you mentioned sort of if you can't afford a Hermes handbag, don't buy it. But I wonder how can we stay sort of tethered to or maybe identify trustworthy relationships with consumers in an era where they have more appetite to not just automatically trust or consume the incumbents of a given category.

Hitha Herzog: [00:34:04] I think Kate really has a point here when it comes to the influencers and people who have that sort of clout online and in the context of now we are seeing as much as I just talked about brand equity in news organizations, news organizations are a little bit of crisis right now, and I think we are seeing a lot of people have their own versions of their news. My friend Moisha has Moisha News and a couple of my friends, another friend has SmartHer News. You're seeing a lot of people who are formally on the news create their own kind of microcosms of information, and I think that is where it's going. They're creating their own free press, and then their communities rally around that. And if I were to be a futurist on that, I think that is where it's going and there's going to be people who are creators that will automatically or maybe through lots of work have gained that trust and have been known and trusted and have had that reputation, and it is probably going to be a little bit more protected, those reputations, because they understand that they have the trust of their followers and community.

Kate Lindsay: [00:35:19] Yeah. Because I'm thinking about but basically, I agree and I think the answer is that the people that, at least young people trust are each other. And I think I was talking with my friends the other day, and the trends that happen online and the viral products kind of do go in line with, they're a reflection of the economy. And so one of the things we were talking about recently is the viral products that I've been seeing recently, like Old Navy's back, apparently. And Old Navy is very accessible. And I only know that I've never seen a TikTok from Old Navy. Or if I've seen an Old Navy ad on Hulu, I wasn't listening. But I know this because a bunch of different not even influencers, because I think influencers have started to represent authority in the same way that The New York Times does. And actually that brings some skepticism as to whether they're making these recommendations because they really like it. But an app like TikTok where anyone can post, there is this pair of shorts from Old Navy that I want. And it's only because I've seen a bunch of just regular women my age who don't have huge followings posting about how they went and got the viral shorts. It's I trust the people and the trust comes from sort of the community and the regular people, which I hope would lead to more authentic recommendations because people on TikTok are not or, you know, other platforms, but they're not afraid to tell you if something's bad. In fact, that would probably do great numbers for them. So I feel like there's a bit of a crowdsource trustworthiness that happens now.

Phillip: [00:36:56] Thank you so much. Hitha Herzog, Kate Lindsay. Let's give it up.

Hitha Herzog: [00:36:59] Thank you.

Kate Lindsay: [00:37:00] Thank you.

Announcer: [00:37:05] The VISIONS podcast is brought to you by Future Commerce. You can find more episodes of this podcast and all Future Commerce properties at FutureCommerce.com.